I have been thinking about this post for some time but feel it's necessary. My intention isn't to insult anyone or hurt anyone's feelings but just ask that you think about the issue.

When we place a pothi on the vaja and do kirtan, we are doing a serious beadbi of the pothi.

First, sujaan Gursikhs know that when reading Gurbani outloud either for example at Sri Akhand Paath Sahib, it is important to cover the mouth to ensure that spit does not fall on Gurbani. But during keertan, covering the mouth is impossible and the chances of spitting are much higher. We are doing the massive beadbi of spitting on the pothi.

The second is that the vaja moves about and the Pothi resting on the vaja is also shaken about and has often been seen to fall. This is not the proper place to put a Pothi. The other problem is also that the angs of the Pothi are not stable and so some veers and bhains go further by putting pens, glasses cases and other objects on top of the pothi.

A third issue is that vaja/jori are not "suchaa" items. They are not clean. When we handle a pothi, we wash our hands for respect. But when the pothi is on the vaja, we are using our unwashed hands to turn angs or hold it in place.


Bhai Sahib Atma Singh (Panjokhara Sahib) a very close companion of Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh, was a very strong opponent of pothi-kirtan.

Beyond the respect of the Pothi issue, kanthagar (memorized) kirtan is the real maryada. The time a Singh/Kaur takes to memorize and reflect on the shabad is reflected in how that shabad is sung and the impact it has on the sangat.

If kanthagar kirtan is not possible for some reason, then at the very least, please do parkash of the Pothi on the side of the vaja where respect and maryada can be maintained.

Although Gursikhs do kirtan to earn the blessings and khushi of Guru Sahib, by placing Gurbani pothi on the vaja, we are putting ourselves in the position of in fact being guilty of doing beadbi of Gurbani.

Once again, my intention is not to insult anyone only to encourage veers and bhain jees to reflect on the issue.

that was a very important aspect veerjee. Next time daas will surely take care of this. definetly and daas will also speak about this with my other gursikh veers&bhains over here.


Thank u very much.

Wjkk Wjkf,
why do we as a Panth always discuss pointless matters. Are you saying that we should also get rid of the projection screens with the Gurbani projected on them as well. A pothi is an aid. 99% of the ragis that do kirtan, miss out vital pronunciations, that change the whole meaning if the shabad. By having the pothi is visual aid, which helps us to prevent making as many mistakes.

Wjkk Wjkf

Balpreet Singh has raised very important point about pothi satkaar. With the exception of Akhand Kirtani Jatha, all Raagis and kirtaniyas in Panth do kanth kirtan i.e. kirtan from memory. I have never seen Srinagar walay or other Panthic kirtaniyaas doing kirtan by placing pothi on the vaaja. Why should Jatha have to do so?

A kirtaniya can concentrate on the shabad better if he or she has the shabad memorized. If the kirtaniya is going to be worried about looking up each pankiti from the pothi placed on the vaaja, how is he or she going to concentrate.

Veer ‘hsingh’ jeeo, the issue of Gurbani Satkaar is not a trivial, petty or pointless issue. The Satkaar of Gurbani is an important issue for Gursikhs and even if the kirtaniya does not feel that placing pothi on vaaja and unwittingly spiting on it brings dishonour and disrespect to the Gurbani pothi, still he or she should consider the feelings of Gursikhs sitting in darbar. Gursikhs are pained to see the rough handling of pothi by kirtaniyas. No one washes their hands before handling the pothi. After playing vaaja or tabla, how can they start handling pothi, without washing hands?

The best thing, as Balpreet Singh pointed out is to do kanth kirtan. Bhai Sahib Atma Singh jee Panjokhra Sahib waalay spent the last two decades trying to get the pothi away from Vaaja but alas, Jatha did not listen to him. Many other Gursikhs voiced their concerns but no one listened. Guru Sahib bhali karan.

Kulbir Singh

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹ

veer 'hsingh' jee,

you wrote:

"why do we as a Panth always discuss pointless matters"
> that's purely subjective and not helpful - some people think discussing the parkaash of maharaaj jee in inappropriate locations 'pointless'...does that make it so?

i for one would go as far as to say that only someone who gives lots of satkaar to gurbaaNee can truly start to truly understand and experience the concept of shabad-guroo.

"Are you saying that we should also get rid of the projection screens with the Gurbani projected on them as well"

> a pothee and a screen are different. we do not spit over the screen (at least i hope not!).

secondly, the screen cannot be said to be unstable as is a pothee placed on a vajaa.

thirdly, potheeaa(n), unlike a screen, are close in some ways to the form of our partakh guroo sahib, siree guroo granth sahib jee i.e. they are like a 'granth' in their form.

"By having the pothi is visual aid, which helps us to prevent making as many mistakes".

> same argument as some make for having pad-ched beer...my point is, should we direspect maharaaj jee in order to 'make life easier for us so we can do His parchaar'? i and many others think that we should not do this. satkaar and 'the need to do parchaar' are not things which should be traded-off in relation to one another. satkaar comes first.

there is no reason why kirtanees cannot take the time to memorise keertan. the fact is that those who are aware of the lack of satkaar related to this practise, but choose to ignore the issue, do so because they have a 'chaa' to do keertan which over-rides the level of satkaar they have for maharaaj jee. that is kachee and misinformed sikhee.

if someone must use a pothee then why not use a rael? we should all in our respective countries start to action this by insisting that potheeaa(n) are placed on raels with rumalae at all jatha programmes. that would be a major starting point on the path towards kanthaghar keertan.

i brought this up at the recent UK smaagam during an Asa Kee Vaar keertan session but sadly there were no raels at the gurooghar and so rumalae were placed by a loving veer as the next best alternative. let's make sure there are supplies of raels and rumalae for future programmes.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

I think GuruJi regarded Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as guru coz he wants his sikhs to read and follow Gurbani and tht too with proper maryada (as we are Treating a Guruji) .

Here im very much agree with the maryada and positioning point of pothi(some extract taken froM Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji). I think rather thn placing pothi on Vaja gurudwara's can equip thmslves with a transperent stand tht can handle pothi.

Coming to the question of accidental spit falling on pothi. I think here we are high handling like fanaticism. Our whole body is having "Mal, mootr,blood,veins,diseases,germs, bacteria etc" our hands arent as pure always. coz we do many tough jobs dialy with hands.

I think rather thn laminating our faces and covering our hands with surgical gloves we shld clean our mind.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹ

veer 'sidhu.hcl' jee,

"Coming to the question of accidental spit falling on pothi. I think here we are high handling like fanaticism. Our whole body is having "Mal, mootr,blood,veins,diseases,germs, bacteria etc" our hands arent as pure always. coz we do many tough jobs dialy with hands".

> just because you are made up of veins, blood etc. doesn't mean that i should knowingly come and spill some entrails on top of you...just as i wouldn't knowingly spit upon maharaaj jee.

my hands aren't always pure, but i would wash them before i eat - it's common sense....just as i would wash my hands after going to the toilet. no-one said that all bacteria will be obliterated. basically, you do what you can and maharaaj jee alone knows what is fake and what is true when it comes to satkaar towards him.

"I think rather thn laminating our faces and covering our hands with surgical gloves we shld clean our mind".

> how is holding a hazorreeaa (piece of cloth) near you mouth the same as 'laminating' your mouth veer/bhain jee? and how is washing your hands the same as wearing surgical gloves? most people, like me, when we sit at tabiyaa know that when doing paath loud, spittle comes out of our mouths. so what is the harm in doing a very samll thing to try and stop it from ladning on mahraaj jee's pavittar shabad roop? i think you need to ask why this very simple and straightforw concept has bothered you so much.

via gurmat, which comes down to mahraaj jee's blessings, one develops bibek-budhee (discerning, gurmat-inspired sense of discrimination) and comes to know what type of washing/cleansing act is useful and what isn't, just as they come to know what type of food, clothing, sangat, practices etc. are spiritually useful or spiritually destructive. someone who does not jap naam, read gurbaaNee or humble themselves before satguroo jee will always look at such people and say they are being stupid. but what does it matter to those who jap naam and try to live, breath-by-breath, for maharaaj jee?

the 14th verse of anand sahib is useful regarding the above:

ਭਗਤਾਕੀਚਾਲਨਿਰਾਲੀ ॥
bhuguthaa kee chaal niraalee ||
The lifestyle of the devotees is unique and distinct.

ਚਾਲਾਨਿਰਾਲੀਭਗਤਾਹਕੇਰੀਬਿਖਮਮਾਰਗਿਚਲਣਾ ॥
chaalaa niraalee bhuguthaah kaeree bikhum maarag chulunaa ||
The devotees' lifestyle is unique and distinct; they follow the most difficult path.

ਲਬੁਲੋਭੁਅਹੰਕਾਰੁਤਜਿਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾਬਹੁਤੁਨਾਹੀਬੋਲਣਾ ॥
lub lobh ahunkaar thaj thrisunaa buhuth naahee bolunaa ||
They renounce greed, avarice, egotism and desire; they do not talk too much.

ਖੰਨਿਅਹੁਤਿਖੀਵਾਲਹੁਨਿਕੀਏਤੁਮਾਰਗਿਜਾਣਾ ॥
khunniahu thikhee vaaluhu nikee eaeth maarag jaanaa ||
The path they take is sharper than a two-edged sword, and finer than a hair.

ਗੁਰਪਰਸਾਦੀਜਿਨੀਆਪੁਤਜਿਆਹਰਿਵਾਸਨਾਸਮਾਣੀ ॥
gur purusaadhee jinee aap thajiaa har vaasunaa sumaanee ||
By Guru's Grace, they shed their selfishness and conceit; their hopes are merged in the Lord.

ਕਹੈਨਾਨਕੁਚਾਲਭਗਤਾਜੁਗਹੁਜੁਗੁਨਿਰਾਲੀ ॥14॥
kehai naanuk chaal bhuguthaa juguhu jug niraalee ||14||
Says Nanak, the lifestyle of the devotees, in each and every age, is unique and distinct. ||14||

although, in my very limited opinion, it talks about every aspect of the bhagats' inner and outer being, mindset, avastha etc., i think it is useful to keep it in mind even during discussions such as this because bhagats always seem to say and do things that seem strange to other people, especially wordly people. the way they look at things and the way others look at the same thing is usually entirely different, and very often completely oppositional.

please do not mistake what i have said in this post as a justification for meaningless, pakhand-inspired ritual washing/acts of prurification, as criticised by maharaaj jee in asa kee vaar and elsewhere throughout gurbaaNee.

the only way someone comes to know what is pakhand and what is not when it comes to ishnaan is when they do bhagtee because it is only then that they come to know what is in their mind/heart...and their mind/heart is where all their thoughts/desires originate from...pakhand, is like every other type of thought/act, an emanation from our mind, a mind which for most people is strongly controlled by the 5 thieves. the more these 5 thieves are challenged via Naam, GurbaaNee and Rehit, the weaker they become and the more bibek budhee maharaaj jee blesses us with. mahraaj jee teaches such people what is pakahnd and what is not. here's an example:

- a premee tyaar-bar-tyaar gursikh stands on one leg all night japping naam. he does this in order to not fall asleep and to keep his beloved deep within in his consciousness.

now, what do me and you know about what he is feeling in his heart and how maharaaj jee will reward him? many would label the above as a ritual, as 'anti-gurmat' as 'baman-vad'...does that make it so?

maharaaj jee jandae.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

Accidental spit, may be small one, on the face of a person, by the other; makes one feel how awkward is that.

Respect means respect. You will try to show that, if you have that.

I remember Shaheed bhai amrik singh jees singhnee telling us that she had to learn about 100 shabads off by hart b4 sant kartaar singh ji allowed her to do kirtan. . .taksal maryada is of kanth bani also. . .an excellent point raised

Veer ATMA Singh Ji I understd wht u want to say.... but

Here we are discussing abt the condition whn some Kirtaniya is doing Kirtan with pothi placed on Vaja. Here i dont think "sikhs" are blessed with 6 hands
1) 1st hand to play vaja
2) 2nd to hold pothi (here stand can be used)
3) to turn pages on pothi
4) to place and keep cloth on ur face always.
5) .....
6) to keep the vaja from moving away.

My frnd Im totally against placing of pothi on vaja. Also i opposes tht one shld be cautious enough tht he shld not spill out while doing path or kirtan.

I think here we are high handling the religion and OUR body is full of dirt, mal, vikaar, spit,blood etc .

Its ok while sitting and reading in front of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji one can cover his face but whn someone is sitting on Vaja and is doing kirtan How would one expect to keep his mouth covered with cloth???? EVEN AT GURUJI's TIME THIS THING WASnt BEING PRACTISED ever.

atma singh veer ji i would prefer u to go thru following lines

"je rabb milda vich maseeti , milda cham chirakaan,
je rabb milda jangal bele , Milda gauwan vachiyan ,
je rabb milda naahteyan dhoteyaan , milda dadduyan machiyan,
bulle shah rabb ohna nu milda eh "neetaan" jinadiyan sachiyan."

Second

Moko kahan dhoonde bande, main toh tere paas re ,
na main masjid, na main mandir , na kabbe kailash main,
"na toh kirya karat hi milyo" , na jogi bairag main,
Khoji hoye toh turt hi milyo , pal bhar ki taalash main.

third

sev na milyo, ghaal na milyo , milyo aaye aachint.

I think from here it is very clear we shld all concentrate on naam simran and we shld not do knitpicking.

Maharaj Sri Guru Granth sahib ji is Guru to everyone, One should respect him with utmost dignity. while having access to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji we shld be very very much cautious.


Bhul Chuk maaf , Jini meri patrata c ohna main likhya aa.

vaheguru ji da khalsa , vaheguru ji di fateh.

Sidhu Ji
U are correct, when u speak of importance of "prem" over "ritual". But I do feel, one, himself, can not enjoy the kirtan anand, unless he takes the pain of learning shabads by heart.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹ

veer 'sidhu' jee,

"Here we are discussing abt the condition whn some Kirtaniya is doing Kirtan with pothi placed on Vaja. Here i dont think "sikhs" are blessed with 6 hands"

> as i said earlier, kanth keertan is the way to go. i am not a keertanee but if i was, maharaaj dee kirpa naal, he would bless me with kanth keertan. therefore most of what you've written is irrelevant. i previously tried to counter your issue regarding gursikhs who cover their mouth while reading gurbaaNee to stop spit landing on maharaaj jee. veer jee, tell me: if you were a few inches away from someone's face or even a few feet away, and because of your singing/loud-talking you were accidentally spitting on them, would you not address this?

"I think here we are high handling the religion and OUR body is full of dirt, mal, vikaar, spit,blood etc" .

> i feel i addressed this in my previous post so have nothing more to add.

"...je rabb milda naahteyan dhoteyaan , milda dadduyan machiyan...
...na toh kirya karat hi milyo...
sev na milyo, ghaal na milyo , milyo aaye aachint..."

> you certainly have to do more than wash with water to meet vaheguroo but i can tell you something - waking-up during a(n)mritvela and doing ishnaan before japping naam certainly helps one focus on naam. only experiencing this would convince us of it.

in gurbaaNee maharaaj jee criticises those who mistake a means for an end e.g vegetarianism, repeating mantars, ritual cleansing, ritual recitations etc. the end is vaheguroo - the means are a tool and should not become our sole preoccupation to the exclusion of prem-bhagtee. bulleh shah jee seems to be saying the same. as for the other pankteeaa(n), they don't seem to be from gurbaaNee. i could be wrong - pls correct me if need be. anyway, we don't need to go into them - gurbaaNee tells us plenty about this issue.

realise this - when prem-bhagtee is our motivation, goal and pre-occupation, all these become tools that help us. when prem-bhagtee is not our motivation, goal and pre-occupation, all these become enemies that hinder us i.e. create ego.

"I think from here it is very clear we shld all concentrate on naam simran and we shld not do knitpicking. "

> veer jee, i think knowingly spitting on maharaaj jee's roop (gurbaaNee) is something to be avoided - you seem to think the opposite; let's agree to disagree.

do you really think that a person who does what i propose regarding using a hazoreeaa, with a sincere heart, is unable to 'concentrate on naam simran'? if anything, such sincere actions would attract maharaaj jee's kirpa.

"while having access to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji we shld be very very much cautious"

> my point exactly.

veer jee, unless you make any additional points that haven't been addressed already, i will make this my last post - i'm running late for work and need to eat my breakfast so i better dash! lol.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

Kulbir Singh Ji - Panthic Kirtanees may not keep Pothian on the Vaja but I have seen some with notes on pieces of paper or diaries that they refer to occasionally.

The beadbi of Gurbani is widespread and not restricted just to pothian, this is one part of a larger issue. Everyday we see Gurbani printed on papers and adverts for Sikhi events of which most end up in the garbage. In some libraries we have rare and modern sikh manuscipts that anyone can handle, whether Sikh or Non Sikh. Some people agree that this is OK, as aspiring Sikhs have access to Maharaj in a library setting.

Would it be ok for translations of Maharaj to be read in a different language without a hazooria?

I Singh

Veer atma Singh Ji ,

kanth kirtan is the best way to do kirtan I agree. I think for aakhand kirtani jatha's it will become difficult to remember the whole Sri Guru Granth sahib Ji and tht too with proper raags and suvaye....

I dont haVE MUCH knowledge abt doing kirtan but i do know their are somethings called Vishrams, dhun, raags,nodes, suvayes etc tht are needed to be written in musical form before singing it. It will become a herculean task !!! for raaagi singhs.

I dont think its bad if a raagi singh write some gurbani on a piece of paper for kirtan.

I think Quoting refrences of Gurbani into some "website" is as same as writing on a page . u may not know where the "server" is located?? the harddisk where the quoted sentence is going may be made up of plastic in china and may be placed at a location where some adjacent drive or address location contain some pronographic or vikaar content.

Also whn we write our comments on internet the cable used for transmitting the information is "same" tht contain pronography, drugs/ and many more information may travel simultaneously. THIS WAY THIS IS ALSO A BIG BEADBI

Here our axe had fallen on our own feet.

the best thing that can be done is proper teaching.

Dhan sri guru granth sahib ji maharaj sab nu raah dikhlaan. Meri niki soch ne jo dusya oh bakhyan kita .

vaheguru kirpa kare

<< I think Quoting refrences of Gurbani into some "website" is as same as writing on a page . u may not know where the "server" is located?? the harddisk where the quoted sentence is going may be made up of plastic in china and may be placed at a location where some adjacent drive or address location contain some pronographic or vikaar content.

Also whn we write our comments on internet the cable used for transmitting the information is "same" tht contain pronography, drugs/ and many more information may travel simultaneously. THIS WAY THIS IS ALSO A BIG BEADBI >>>>>

Isnt all this data digitally encoded(bits, 10101100.....). Its only some displaly device like monitor thats decodes this digital data into graphical data(symbols, letters, urraa, airraaa etc...). I dont think there is much beadbi, yes at the time we are using a displace device for reading or writing gurbani, that device shud be respected.
At the server, the gurbani files are stored in the form of digital data on a magnetic surface(disc), we use a brower client to access that digital data and its the monitor in front of us that changes that data into graphics,text.
When it comes to paper, we are writing gurmukhi letters and not 1100111....
when we are using electonics, the display device shud be respected, and when we are using paper, any paper on which gurbani is written(even a single tukk) shud be respected. AND POTHI SHUD BE RESPECTED. if the jatha kirtaniyaas are ready to spend so much energy in doing waheguru waheguru waheguru..... waheguru waheguru waheguru during kirtan, they shud be also be ready to spend some energy in either memorizing gurbani or respecting pothi during kirtan.
May be a person with clean and washed hands shud sit besides the kirtanniyaaa and shud find the current shabad thats being sung for the kirtanniyaa and the kirtanniyaa shud only use his eyes(and at the same time take one hand off from the vajja and cover his mouth with hazooriaa) and read from the pothi.

SIDHU JI KIS CHAKAR WICH PAI GAYE? HUN BAS KARO.

veer hrinder singh ji i agree tht binary codes are used but other contents are also converted into binary form and whn both are travelling simultanously it is BEADBI only.

Ok take example of ur television tht is used for watching both bollywood, or other content also the same is used to watch ETC for GurBANI AND MUKHWAK this is also beadbi.

veer MSingh Ji we all have utmost respect for Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and we all follow him.

sikh religion is open for all to follow and I dont divide my religion into different catagories.

whn talking about pothi kirtan , we all know keeping pothi on Vaja is BEADBI to SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB ji as explained by S.balpreet singh ji. One shldnt do so.

secondly whn we are talking abt "accidental spitting" while singing kirtan, I think nobody wants his spit to fall on Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji why we people are only becoming takers of religion. we all understand it is not possible for a babaji to do kirtan by covering his face.

veer atma singh ji told the another way possible is "kanth kirtan" im very much agree with him. but sometimes it is required for a ragi to understd the musical content or node,raag etc . i think for this he is required to look into some pothi or DISPLAY CAN BE USED GURUDWARAs.

Futher coming to my veer harinder singh ji he is very right tht data in computers is digitally coded and he also favours tht one can write GUrBANI on a page in digital or any other coded format(not gumukhi).

I think the best way to avert all problems of accidental spitting is usuage of electronic displays at gurudwaras on stand in front of kirtaniya .

"Kanth Kirtan" is best, -----------------------------------It is better than "Pothi Kirtan"; -----------------But Pothi kirtan is better than living "without Kirtan"

<<< veer hrinder singh ji i agree tht binary codes are used but other contents are also converted into binary form and whn both are travelling simultanously it is BEADBI only.

Ok take example of ur television tht is used for watching both bollywood, or other content also the same is used to watch ETC for GurBANI AND MUKHWAK this is also beadbi.>>>>

I agree that in a wire, binary code(that will decode into gurbani by a display device) and binary codes(that will decode into vikaar) are simulataniously travelling, but its not beadbi because its same as a gursikh travelling in an aeroplane and sitting beside some vikaari manmukh insaan.
But yes, when these digital codes are being decoded by the display device(TV, monitor), the display device shud be respected at that time and at that time no other vikaar activity shud be watched or seen.