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Sant Harkhowal jee's thoughts on merging into Vaheguru
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 18, 2008 07:49AM

I listened to the last part of discussion with Sant Jagjit Singh Harkhowal, posted by SunSingh. He asked the following question to Sant jee:

- some people think when this jev get bedah mukht avastha or merge with
vahiguroo even then atma of this jev have some kind of paichaan?


First of all, it won't be out of place to mention that excellent questions were asked and good vichaar came out of it. Sant jee responded very patiently and in detail. This is the kind of discussion that gursikhs should carry out when meeting.

Sant jee's response to the above question was that what any person subscribing to the Advaita Vedanta would have given. I will, if necessary, post exact wording at a later time since I don't have the recording available to me at this time. His response to the question was that once the jeev merges with Vaheguru, it loses it's identity forever. Then the Singh who was asking the questions asked a very intelligent question. He said, what about instances when Mahapurakhs who have left their body and gone to Sachkhand, come to give darshan to their beloved ones who are still on Earth. At this Sant jee responded by saying that it's not those Mahapurakhs who come but Vaheguru who takes on their form and comes to fulfill the wishes of the jigiasoo on Earth.

This was shocking for me since it was totally against the philosophy of Gurmat. This is basically Advaita Vedanta that was being preached by Sant jee. Here are some of the questions that arise from this vichaar:

1) If it was only Brahm all along (and not jeev and Brahm), then how did Brahm falter in the first place and got entangled in the illusion of Maya? We know that Brahm is infallible and cannot make a mistake. Then how did it make this mistake of falling for maya in the original instance? If we believe in some form of Duvaite (there are many schools of thought within Duvait) then we don't have to explain this since it is the jeev that might have faltered in the first place and not Brahm.

2) If we were to believe the above stated theory of Sant jee, it would mean that our Guru Sahibaan don't exist any longer. They have lost their identities and are now merged in Vaheguru. So what's the point of praying to them? Why not do ardaas before Vaheguru only? Think about it. If our Guru Sahibaan had been anihilated (May God forgive me for using this language) as stated by Sant jee in the above vichaar, then Gurbani would not have contained pankitis invoking Guru Sahibaan. What's the point of saying 'Gur Raamdaas Rakho Sharnaayee' if Siri Guru Raamdaas jee does not exist any longer and only Vaheguru exists?

3) Gurmat talks about Sad-jeevan (everlasting life) and sad-jeevan in full bliss. One cannot have bliss if one loses surti i.e. identity or consciousness. If jeev gets merged in Vaheguru in such way as Advaita Vedanta suggests, then this jeev cannot be in Anand since in order to enjoy Anand, one has to have an identity. Without consciousness one cannot have anand.

4) What's the point of doing bhagti if you are to get anihilated i.e. destroyed. To me this seems like a suicide. Why would someone do it?

5) This definition of salvation is against what all other mahapurakhs have described. Sikh salvation is entry into Sachkhand or Begumpura. This Sachkhand as per description given by Gurbani and Gursikhs who have reached there is not such that is without Bhagats. It is full of Bhagats who reside there enjoying everlasting life and bliss.

6) If we believe that above stated idea of the ultimate spiritual avastha, then such pankitis as 'Bhagat Terai Mann Bhaavde, Dar sohan Keerat Gaavde|| (9th pauri of Siri Asa kee veer) would be rendered meaningless. How can you have bhagats singing keerat of Vaheguru at his Dar, when they have merged in him and no longer have identities. Please explain this.

Vedant has many theories within itself but Advait definitely is not close to Gursikhi.

Below is a post I wrote on this subject some time ago. It presents thoughts of Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh describing the ultimate abode of a Gursikh and how Bhagats reside in the next world:

Quote:
Translated from page 71-72 of 'SachKhand Darshan' by Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee:

Bhagat Ravidaas jee in love (Shabad: Beghampura Shehar ko nayo on ang 345 of Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee) gives Sach Khand the name of Beghumpura i.e. the place where there is no sorrow (Be-Gham-pura) because in Beghampura there is no sorrow, worry, anxiety and nor is there any tax as in this mortal world. There is no worldly riches and wealth there. There is no fear of sin and nor there is regression and degeneration of mind there.

Bhagat jee is saying that they have attained a very great dwelling-place where there is always happiness. Governments or kings in this land don't change like worldly governments and kings. Kingdom of Vaheguru always stays eternal. This city of Beghampura is very densely populated and very prosperous too. Since Beghampura is the place where Vaheguru resides (in his pure form) this dwelling is just as famous as Vaheguru himself. In this city, Bhagats loaded with the wealth of Naam and accepted by Vaheguru reside and they are fully knowledgeable of the secrets of the palace of Vaheguru. They can enjoy the bliss of this palace as they please i.e. there is no stopping to them. If they will, they can come back to this world (Earth) at their will as per the Gurbani hukam 'Gurmukh aaye jaaye nisung'. In this dwelling of Sach Khand one realises what real freedom is. Bhagat jee declares that only those ones who reside in Sach Khand are his friends. Only their friendship can last in the mortal world and the Sach Khand world.

*********Translation over**********

Above Bhai Sahib jee has clearly stated that Bhagats are very much alive and not decimated in Sach Khand. They are not only alive but at will they can come to this world or go anywhere they want. There is total freedom to them. They can go anywhere unhindered.

If we read the article, 'Akal Purakh dee Dargaah' in Andithee Duniya, we get clear understanding that Bhagats do in fact reside in the next world and they don't lose their identity. I will herein give few quotations from Bhai Sahib's books to prove this point:

Andithee Duniya quotations are from Edition 6, 1990.

1) Page 96 of Andithee Duniya:

In the dargaah of Vaheguru (Har Dargaah andar), reside millions and billions of servants or bhagats of Vaheguru, who reside with Vaheguru in such manner that they don't lose sight of him even for one moment. This unseen and unreachable (for mortal beings) world exists totally away from the sight of the worldly people of this world (our world – Earth). This world of Nirankaar or Vaheguru is much more densely and prosperously populated than the mortal world. Exact Punjabi quote is: Ih duniya (Sach Khand) aisee hee ghugg vasdee hai jaise ke drishtmaan duniya (physical world i.e. mortal world); sagon uh vadere ghugg vasdee hai.

Yatha Gurvaak (refer to the Gurbani Hukam below).

KOT MEHAL JA KAE DARBARE ||
NIMAKH NIMAKH VASAI TIN NAALAY ||


2) Page 96 of Andithee Duniya


SOOKH MEHAL JA KE OOCH DUYAARAY ||
TAA MEH VAASEH BHAGAT PYAARAY || (Ang 739)

Billions and Billions of khoohaniyaan i.e. regiments of Bhagats reside in the eternal and true Sachkhandee Darbaar of Vaheguru. By the kirpa of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj ones who have collected the true wealth of Naam took this wealth with them to Sach Khand.

Khoohani means a regiment that contains x number of soldiers, infantry, elephants, horses etc. Bhai Sahib used the world khoohani to describe the colonies of Bhagats there.


3) Page 88 of Andithee Duniya

The existence of the dargaah (darbaar) of Vaheguru is such a notion that a gursikh must have faith in and it is pure Gurmat to do so. According to Gurmat there is Nirankaar's Khand i.e. Sach Khand and there is the Darbaar of Vaheguru too. Yathaa Gurvaak:

NIRANKAAR KAI DESH JAAHE, TAAN SUKH LAHEH MAHAL ||

The happiness-giving palace and the land of Vaheguru Nirankaar is surely there in the next world. O Gursikho, believe this truth without any doubt.

There are many more examples I can give from Bhai Sahib's books that will prove beyond doubt that the Bhagats don't die in the next world or don't cease to exist; and not only do they exist but they stay in full bliss. The bhagats have full freedom and at their will can come to this mortal world of ours as well. "Gurmukh aaye jaaye nisung" is the pankiti that Bhai Sahib has quoted to prove this.

I personally was having hard time swallowing some of the assertions by my veers and bhains that stated that Singhs like Baba Deep Singh jee and Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee had decimated into Vaheguru. Verily, they are still alive and at their will can come to this world.

Bhai Sahib also writes that since there is no maaiya in Sach Khand, Bhagats don't have to do any effort to do bhagtee there because their surtee just does not go out of Naam and Sifat Salaah. What a great world this is. Oh! May we become citizens of this world.

Daas has a lot of respect for Sant Jagjit Singh jee Harkhowal. I bow my head to his Nirmal Khalsa Rehit and possession of so much Brahm Vidya. This daas has very limited knowledge of Gurmat and based on this meagre knowledge is seeking the above stated clarification. Please don't take any offense.

Daas,
Kulbir Singh



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2008 07:52AM by admin.

Re: Sant Harkhowal jee's thoughts on merging into Vaheguru
Posted by: Harcharan Singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 18, 2008 09:20AM

Veer Kulbir Singh Ji,

One question - I respect the approach you have taken above i.e. giving respect to Sant Ji yet questioning their opinion respectfully etc, you have done this as though you are willing to open mindedly debate - implying there is a possibilty that you may change your opinion if a good arguement is put forward.

I am just interested to know, in all honesty, would you (and have you) ever disagreed with a theory or opinion of Bhai Randhir Singh Ji - i.e. you are implying that Sant Ji could be wrong (with all duerespect of course) but would you agree the same could also be true for Bhai Randhir Singh Ji.

I apologise if this seems off topic, but I feel any vichaar/discussion is a complete waste of time if participants are already predisposed to a certain opinion and are unlikely to ever disagree with or change their inherited thought (via their role model) - as this would put them at odds with their sangat/jathaa.

I hope you will understand why I am bringing up this point.

Dhanvaad.

Re: Sant Harkhowal jee's thoughts on merging into Vaheguru
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 18, 2008 09:40AM

Quote:
I am just interested to know, in all honesty, would you (and have you) ever disagreed with a theory or opinion of Bhai Randhir Singh Ji - i.e. you are implying that Sant Ji could be wrong (with all duerespect of course) but would you agree the same could also be true for Bhai Randhir Singh Ji.

This question does not have any relevance with this topic. This topic is not about agreeing or disagreeing with Sant jee or Bhai Sahib. This topic is about whether Gurmat agrees with Advaita Vedanta. It does not matter if I have ever disagreed with Bhai Sahib or not.

Kulbir Singh

Re: Sant Harkhowal jee's thoughts on merging into Vaheguru
Posted by: khalistan_zindabaad (IP Logged)
Date: August 18, 2008 10:38AM

Harcharan Singh Has a valid question, Bhai Sahib jee answer it please, and if so on what topics. Its about gurmat or your version of gurmat agreeing/disagreeing with baba jees veechar...

Re: Sant Harkhowal jee's thoughts on merging into Vaheguru
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 18, 2008 12:25PM

Veer Khalistan-zindabad jeeo,

Quote:
Harcharan Singh Has a valid question, Bhai Sahib jee answer it please, and if so on what topics. Its about gurmat or your version of gurmat agreeing/disagreeing with baba jees veechar...

I shouldn't have to answer this question. It's a personal question and not related to the topic. But I will say this much that out of all books I have read and all authors I have read, Bhai Sahib and his books in my opinion are the best Gurmat philosophy literature available to us, after Bhai Gurdas jee and Bhai Nandlal jee. For some it may be Sant Gurbachan Singh jee's katha of Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee available to us. For others it could be discourses of Sant Rarewale and yet others may like Panth Parkash of Giani Gian Singh or Sooraj Parkash Granth. I respect them all. I have been influenced to some degree by all.

The pankiti "Abhul Guru Kartar" applies to all includings Sants and Bhai Sahib jee. Only Guru and Kartar are exempt from making a mistake.

As for Gurmat or my version of Gurmat, I am not sure what you are trying to say. We have Gurbani and let Gurbani decide what Gurmat is.


Kulbir Singh



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2008 12:33PM by admin.

Re: Sant Harkhowal jee's thoughts on merging into Vaheguru
Posted by: xzik101 (IP Logged)
Date: August 18, 2008 02:06PM

This is a very good topic of discussion Kulbir Singh Jee. I'm glad you have started this.

Harcharan Singh Ji and Khalistan Zindabad Ji, the topic of this discussion is whether or not Advaid Vedant is in line with Gurmat not what Kulbir Singh jee's personal beleifs are. Why not address the topic at hand instead of deviating from the topic? Who cares what Kulbir Singh's personal views are because that's got nothing to do with the topic.

Re: Sant Harkhowal jee's thoughts on merging into Vaheguru
Posted by: N30 S!NGH (IP Logged)
Date: August 18, 2008 02:27PM

I ll post my thoughts on this topic whenever vahiguroo allows me some free time from changing my son diapers..lol

just an general comment regarding sant ji. Sant ji is very loving gurmukh, any question you ask them, they will answer any question even if it may seem questioning their beleifs or further doing constructive debate..i by kirpa of vahiguroo asked these questions above after bhai kulbir singh ji constructive debated posted long time ago in old tapoban forum between bhai kulbir singh ji, avidya and J Singh..sant ji already left for india but they usually come to toronto every year, when they do come next year. Please swing by ask him any questions, make sure you record them and post it on the web so others can take laha as well.

~Puratan MangalCharan ~

Firstly meditating upon Aatam Dev
Nirmal Jot, of Sat Chit Anand Svaroop

Then I bow to the lotus feet of Ishtadev
SatGuru Maharaj, Dasaan Patshahian di Jot

Finally I offer salutations to my Gurdev/Murshid
, under whose guidance.
All efforts blossom forth

Sat Sri Akaal !

Re: Sant Harkhowal jee's thoughts on merging into Vaheguru
Posted by: xzik101 (IP Logged)
Date: August 18, 2008 02:31PM

It's interesting to note that during the Bhagti movement, all the Bhagti cults which arose during the Ramanandi Shakhaa(which includes Ravidas, Kabir, NamDev etc), Gaudiyaa mat followed either Vashisht Dvait or Dvait. Non followed Advait. Then why would Sikhi which also arose during the Bhagti movement and is very similar to the other condemporary Bhagti cults take a 90 degree turn and follow Advait Vedant?

If the Atma no longer has any Vajood after being merged with Akal Purkh, then that would imply that the Gurus have also merged and thus no longer exist. But then the question arises, who are we invoking when doing Ardas to Guru jee? since Guru jee no longer exists? Can Guru Nanak Dev jee no longer give us his blessings since he no longer exists?

All the great Brahmgianis and GurSikhs who have had darshan of the Gurus, who did they see if Guru Jee no longer exists? After all, if the Gurus and Brahmgianis who have merged with Vaheguru no longer exist, then why do people still have their darshan? To me it seems, Advait Vedant is not compatible with Gurmat. They are to distinct philosophies.

Re: Sant Harkhowal jee's thoughts on merging into Vaheguru
Posted by: Matheen (IP Logged)
Date: August 18, 2008 02:57PM

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa!
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Personally, Dass sees no conflict between what is being called 'Advait Vedanta' and 'Gurmat'.

This is something I read on sikhawareness forum: "we have our own form of advaita (a term used repeatedly by Guru Maharaj in Akal Ustat and Gyan Prabodh). This is an old discussion, there is masses written on this so please search past discussions. Please show me one shabad that says Atma is anything different from Parmatma. Aham Brahamasmi (I am that) = So ham (I am Him) = same term used in shabad by Guru Nanak Dev ji twice (ANg.60 and.599)."

Repeatedly Guru Ji tells us that bhagat and Akaal are one e.g. "Har, Har Jan, Doee Ek Hai"; "Tu Tu Karta, Tu Hoa"; and many other times as well. Bhai Gurdas Ji also helps us understand this.

Gurbani also tells us directly and indirectly that Guru Sahib was/is Waheguru in physical form.

I disagree with Veer Kulbir Singh Ji when you write that "5) This definition of salvation is against what all other mahapurakhs have described..."

If you read the personal experiences of pooran Mahapursh and their Bhagti of putting Guru Ji's teachings into practice,(e.g. the personal diary of Sant Isher Singh Ji , Rarewale, was recently put on the internet), this is exactly what Sachkhand is and furthermore, we don't need to wait until after death to reach there.

Our Guru Sahib existed, exist and will always exist. They are still with us in Sargun saroop of Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Dass is pressed for time but will try to write more later.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa!
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Re: Sant Harkhowal jee's thoughts on merging into Vaheguru
Posted by: Sunsingh (IP Logged)
Date: August 19, 2008 01:13AM

Kulbir Singh ji, in a past post on this subject you wrote:
"My question is, is Vedant according to Gurmat? Is Advaitvaad preached by Vedant, according to Gurmat?

Vedant in my opinion is opposed to Prema-Bhagti because they don't believe in a God separate from the Jeev and consider jeev to be God (Aham Brahmasiya) but as far as I know, Gurmat is all about Prema-bhagti. Aham-Brahmasiya is not according to Gurmat. Tu Tu karta Tu hooya (not mai hooya), mujh meh raha na hoo. In other words, Mai became tum but not tum becoming mai as is the case in Vedant.

There is no doubt that Vedant is a great philosophy and it worked very well to tackle Buddhism's atheism but it is far from the Gurmat philosophy of Vaheguru and jeev. It would be interesting to know Sant jee's or their companions' views on Vedant and Gurmat."

-Before we discuss whether advait is inline with Gurmat, we must agree upon what advait is.

I was reading posts from Sikhawareness, and somebody posted:

"in Gurmat very simply; maya = 3 gunas, everything is of 3 gunas inc mind, Atma is not touched by 3 gunas = Parmatma (described as 'advaita'). Its that simple!"

He also described the need for vedant:

"Why the need for Vedant? Because Gurbani explicitly talks of the four fold antahkaran, the 4 avasthas, kaivalya mukhti, etc. When the Guru talks of the four states, what do you derive from that? How then do you interpret references to the 'body' being unveiled by the Guru? Which body? When he talks of the 'fourth' state in Sidh Gosht, what does that mean? What is the nature of jivan mukt? What are the forms of praman or valid knowledge for Gurmat? What about the guns? What is meant by going beyond the three gunas? How? What is meant when bhai Gurdas Ji talks of vasna? What is the real meaning of the term? What is the nature of the 'unseeing seeing'? etc, etc. This is where Vedant comes in. It is used to explain the basic structural model of human consciousness, its components and its interactions in Gurmat. From that you will notice other bits of Gurbani which before you read over mindlessly, now they ring out with new meaning. It is also used to explain the subtlest aspects of the highest experiences (not necessarily the initial process of rising vivek). How else can you explain the existence of the study of Vedant for the last 400 years of Sikh history by gursikhs (recall Bhai Gurdas studied in Kashi and is using Vedantic concepts in his Kabits) or Kavi Sukhdev's 'Adhyatam Prakash'?"



Looking at Kulbir Singh ji's points above:

1) If it was only Brahm all along (and not jeev and Brahm), then how did Brahm falter in the first place and got entangled in the illusion of Maya? We know that Brahm is infallible and cannot make a mistake. Then how did it make this mistake of falling for maya in the original instance? If we believe in some form of Duvaite (there are many schools of thought within Duvait) then we don't have to explain this since it is the jeev that might have faltered in the first place and not Brahm.

-"Dvaita Vaad is about as far as you could get in terms of Vedant from Gurmat! It holds firmly to three real and seperate realities, Jiv, Ishvar and Jagat. Within them are five real differences, between jiva and matter, Jiv and vishnu, etc, etc. It is described as the extreme realist form, perhaps more like Nyaya (which some Madhavas built on). There is no maya in Dvaita vaad! Ishvar is entirely sargun as sargun Vishnu in dvaita vaad! Jiv is dependent but not of the same thing as Ishvar...whereas in Gurmat the two are repeatedly described as being one and the same. the metaphors used in Gurbani all stem from advaitavad, e.g. moon reflecting in water, the two birds in one tree, rope and the snake, water and the pot, wave and the ocean, seed and the fruit, etc, etc. " -TSingh


2) If we were to believe the above stated theory of Sant jee, it would mean that our Guru Sahibaan don't exist any longer. They have lost their identities and are now merged in Vaheguru. So what's the point of praying to them? Why not do ardaas before Vaheguru only? Think about it. If our Guru Sahibaan had been anihilated (May God forgive me for using this language) as stated by Sant jee in the above vichaar, then Gurbani would not have contained pankitis invoking Guru Sahibaan. What's the point of saying 'Gur Raamdaas Rakho Sharnaayee' if Siri Guru Raamdaas jee does not exist any longer and only Vaheguru exists?

-Guru is Waheguru himself according to Gurbani (ang 442, 1142). So the same Guru existed before taking avtar of Guru Nanak, and the same Guru exists now after the Guru left his sareer.


3) Gurmat talks about Sad-jeevan (everlasting life) and sad-jeevan in full bliss. One cannot have bliss if one loses surti i.e. identity or consciousness. If jeev gets merged in Vaheguru in such way as Advaita Vedanta suggests, then this jeev cannot be in Anand since in order to enjoy Anand, one has to have an identity. Without consciousness one cannot have anand. & 4) What's the point of doing bhagti if you are to get anihilated i.e. destroyed. To me this seems like a suicide. Why would someone do it?

-I think what sant ji was saying is that the the sense of being separate (which is created by ego) is abolished, it does not mean consciousness is destroyed. In Bachittar Natak, Guru ji refers to his state before taking Avtar. He wrote that he became one with God. Gurbani also states that the soul bride becomes one with God, merges with God(ang 737 - [www.srigranth.org]; Ang 1107 [www.srigranth.org]).

Our dhristi (vision) sees falsely b/c of our haumai, for this reason we see ourselves as being apart from waheguru when in reality we are really one with waheguru. This is why Gurbani states that we are separated from God by a veil thinner than the wing of a butterfly; there is no physical barrier actually keeping us apart from God, but the barrier of ego which makes us think we are separate.

ਹਉ ਹਉ ਭੀਤਿ ਭਇਓ ਹੈ ਬੀਚੋ; ਸੁਨਤ ਦੇਸਿ ਨਿਕਟਾਇਓ ॥ The wall of pride and ego intervenes between me and Him. He is heard to be close by in the country. ਭਾਂਭੀਰੀ ਕੇ ਪਾਤ ਪਰਦੋ; ਬਿਨੁ ਪੇਖੇ ਦੂਰਾਇਓ ॥੩॥ Between me and the Lord is the fine curtain like the wings of a butter-fly but seeing Him not, I deem Him distant. -(Ang 624)

5) This definition of salvation is against what all other mahapurakhs have described. Sikh salvation is entry into Sachkhand or Begumpura. This Sachkhand as per description given by Gurbani and Gursikhs who have reached there is not such that is without Bhagats. It is full of Bhagats who reside there enjoying everlasting life and bliss.

-Sachkhand is an avastha, one who is jeevanmukt is at the avastha of bhramgian, they are in sachkhand. Begampura also refers to this avastha. It also exists as a place, I believe, for after the bhramgyani leaves the sareer. No sant who has had darshan of sachkhand actually writes that it is any different as far as I know.


6) If we believe that above stated idea of the ultimate spiritual avastha, then such pankitis as 'Bhagat Terai Mann Bhaavde, Dar sohan Keerat Gaavde|| (9th pauri of Siri Asa kee veer) would be rendered meaningless. How can you have bhagats singing keerat of Vaheguru at his Dar, when they have merged in him and no longer have identities. Please explain this.
-explained above.

Hope that clarifies things. btw, for the sake of full disclosure, most of the questions with sant ji were not asked by myself, but by another.

Re: Sant Harkhowal jee's thoughts on merging into Vaheguru
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 19, 2008 07:47AM

Sunsingh jeeo,

Quote:
"Why the need for Vedant? Because Gurbani explicitly talks of the four fold antahkaran, the 4 avasthas, kaivalya mukhti, etc. When the Guru talks of the four states, what do you derive from that?

I am assuming you are talking about the 3 states of maya namely Rajo, Sato and Tamo. The fourth one i.e. Turiya or Chauthapad is the state beyong maya and Gursikh stays in this avastha. But staying in this avastha does not mean that a Gursikh is staying without the deity Vaheguru or has become the deity himself. This avastha according to Gurmat is the avastha in which a Gursikh is Majzoob (merged) in the Preet of Dib-Lateefi Charan Kamal of Vaheguru jee. In this avastha, the Gursikh is totally one with Vaheguru and so much so that to the normal eye, the two are indistinguishable but this does not mean that a Gursikh has lost identity. The Gursikh in this avastha is totally in bliss and to be in bliss or to enjoy bliss, one has to retain identity and consciousness.


Quote:
This is where Vedant comes in. It is used to explain the basic structural model of human consciousness, its components and its interactions in Gurmat. From that you will notice other bits of Gurbani which before you read over mindlessly, now they ring out with new meaning. It is also used to explain the subtlest aspects of the highest experiences (not necessarily the initial process of rising vivek). How else can you explain the existence of the study of Vedant for the last 400 years of Sikh history by gursikhs (recall Bhai Gurdas studied in Kashi and is using Vedantic concepts in his Kabits) or Kavi Sukhdev's 'Adhyatam Prakash'?"

What I can understand from the above paragraph is that Gurmat has nothing new to offer to the world and it is merely giving to the world what is already given by founders or Advaita Vedanta. Gurmat has been reduced to a Samprada of the Hindu Dharma and this is what so many pseudo-scholars want.

From what I have studied, Gurmat is neither fully agreeable to Advaita nor Dvaita and it's many schools of thought. Gurmat is unique. Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee did not merely offer old wine in a new bottle. There is no doubt that Siri Guru jee and Gurmat has been in working in all four Yugs but the ultimate reality offered by Gurmat has always been beyond the comprehension of Vedas or Vedant.


Quote:
-"Dvaita Vaad is about as far as you could get in terms of Vedant from Gurmat! It holds firmly to three real and seperate realities, Jiv, Ishvar and Jagat. Within them are five real differences, between jiva and matter, Jiv and vishnu, etc, etc. It is described as the extreme realist form, perhaps more like Nyaya (which some Madhavas built on). There is no maya in Dvaita vaad! Ishvar is entirely sargun as sargun Vishnu in dvaita vaad! Jiv is dependent but not of the same thing as Ishvar...whereas in Gurmat the two are repeatedly described as being one and the same. the metaphors used in Gurbani all stem from advaitavad, e.g. moon reflecting in water, the two birds in one tree, rope and the snake, water and the pot, wave and the ocean, seed and the fruit, etc, etc. " -TSingh

I have never felt or said that Gurmat is fully in agreement with Dvaita. I don't think Gurmat agrees with the Dvaita of Madhvacharay and its five eternal differences because if we were to agree to the five eternal differences described by Madhvacharya, then we will also agree that Jada i.e. Prakriti i.e. Maya i.e. this world is eternal just as Ishwar is. Gurbani has made it clear that Drishtmaan hai sagal mithena. This world is not eternal. In this respect it seems Gurmat is closer to Advaita. On the other hand, it seems that Gurmat preaches that jeev is eternal and in this respect it is closer to Dvaita. Below is a shabad to backup this claim:

ਗੋਂਡ ਮਹਲਾ 5 ॥ ਅਚਰਜ ਕਥਾ ਮਹਾ ਅਨੂਪ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਾਤਮਾ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਾ ਰੂਪੁ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਨਾ ਇਹੁ ਬੂਢਾ ਨਾ ਇਹੁ ਬਾਲਾ ॥ ਨਾ
ਇਸੁ ਦੂਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਮ ਜਾਲਾ ॥ ਨਾ ਇਹੁ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਨਾ ਇਹੁ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਆਦਿ ਜੁਗਾਦੀ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥1॥ ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਉਸਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਇਸੁ ਸੀਤੁ ॥ ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਦੁਸਮਨੁ ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਮੀਤੁ ॥ ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਹਰਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਇਸੁ ਸੋਗੁ ॥ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਇਸ ਕਾ ਇਹੁ ਕਰਨੈ ਜੋਗੁ ॥2॥ ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਬਾਪੁ ਨਹੀ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਇਆ ॥ ਇਹੁ ਅਪਰੰਪਰੁ ਹੋਤਾ ਆਇਆ ॥ ਪਾਪ ਪੁੰਨ ਕਾ ਇਸੁ ਲੇਪੁ ਨ ਲਾਗੈ ॥ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਦ ਹੀ ਜਾਗੈ ॥3॥

Look at the following pankiti: ਪ੍ਰਾਤਮਾ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਾ ਰੂਪੁ ॥ Please notice that it's Praatam and not Parmatma (Parm + Aatma = Vaheguru). Pratma on the other hand means Aatma.

ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਬਾਪੁ ਨਹੀ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਇਆ ॥ ਇਹੁ ਅਪਰੰਪਰੁ ਹੋਤਾ ਆਇਆ ॥ These pankitis prove beyond doubt that the jeev has always been there.

The above shabad talks about the nature of Jeev when in it's purest form. The purest form of the jeev is Aatma. In this form, the mann (mind) of the Atma is Atma-roop i.e. Jyot-roop as opposed to being coloured in the colour of maya.

There is another shabad in Raag Gaund, by Siri Kabir jee, that tells us the characteristics of Atma:

ਗੋਂਡ ॥ ਨਾ ਇਹੁ ਮਾਨਸੁ ਨਾ ਇਹੁ ਦੇਉ ॥ ਨਾ ਇਹੁ ਜਤੀ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਸੇਉ ॥ ਨਾ ਇਹੁ ਜੋਗੀ ਨਾ ਅਵਧੂਤਾ ॥ ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਇ ਨ ਕਾਹੂ ਪੂਤਾ ॥1॥ ਇਆ ਮੰਦਰ ਮਹਿ ਕੌਨ ਬਸਾਈ ॥ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਕੋਊ ਪਾਈ ॥1॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਨਾ ਇਹੁ ਗਿਰਹੀ ਨਾ ਓਦਾਸੀ ॥ ਨਾ ਇਹੁ ਰਾਜ ਨ ਭੀਖ ਮੰਗਾਸੀ ॥ ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਨ ਰਕਤੂ ਰਾਤੀ ॥ ਨਾ ਇਹੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਨੁ ਨਾ ਇਹੁ ਖਾਤੀ ॥2॥ ਨਾ ਇਹੁ ਤਪਾ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਸੇਖੁ ॥ ਨਾ ਇਹੁ ਜੀਵੈ ਨ ਮਰਤਾ ਦੇਖੁ ॥ ਇਸੁ ਮਰਤੇ ਕਉ ਜੇ ਕੋਊ ਰੋਵੈ ॥ ਜੋ ਰੋਵੈ ਸੋਈ ਪਤਿ ਖੋਵੈ ॥3॥ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਮੈ ਡਗਰੋ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ ਜੀਵਨ ਮਰਨੁ
ਦੋਊ ਮਿਟਵਾਇਆ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਇਹੁ ਰਾਮ ਕੀ ਅੰਸੁ ॥ ਜਸ ਕਾਗਦ ਪਰ ਮਿਟੈ ਨ ਮੰਸੁ ॥4॥2॥5॥

The last pankiti makes it clear that just like ink cannot be removed from paper, same way the jeev cannot be destroyed. It's eternal.

The Jeev and Ishwar are merged in such way that there is no duality. No conflicting thoughts. In the mann of the jeev resides Ishwar and this way the mann of Jeev becomes Ishwar. Mann of the jeev has same divine avastha that Ishwar has. No one can distinguish them. They are one. This way there is Vaheguru alone because there is no duality, no conflicting thoughts arising from the minds of jeev and Ishwar. But the jeev still has consciousness because to enjoy everlasting bliss, one has to have consciousness. Perhaps a good term to describe this is Chataniya Mahaprabhu's term - Achintya Abhedabhed i.e. the Jeev and Ishwar are Abhed (one) and also different but this situation is such that it is unfathomable to mortal beings i.e. it's achintya. But then Gurmat does not agree with other aspects of Achintya Abhedabhed including Everlasting Gokal, Radharani etc.


Quote:
2) If we were to believe the above stated theory of Sant jee, it would mean that our Guru Sahibaan don't exist any longer. They have lost their identities and are now merged in Vaheguru. So what's the point of praying to them? Why not do ardaas before Vaheguru only? Think about it. If our Guru Sahibaan had been anihilated (May God forgive me for using this language) as stated by Sant jee in the above vichaar, then Gurbani would not have contained pankitis invoking Guru Sahibaan. What's the point of saying 'Gur Raamdaas Rakho Sharnaayee' if Siri Guru Raamdaas jee does not exist any longer and only Vaheguru exists?

-Guru is Waheguru himself according to Gurbani (ang 442, 1142). So the same Guru existed before taking avtar of Guru Nanak, and the same Guru exists now after the Guru left his sareer.

Veer jeeo, I am not talking about Sareer of Siri Guru Sahibaan but their existence. What Sant jee said was that Mahapurakhs who merge in Vaheguru lose their identities and this would mean that Guru Sahibaan too have lost their identities and no longer have separate identity to whom we may pray. This means that the pankitis like I quote above i.e. 'Gur Raamdaas Rakho Sharnaayee' are meaningless today. We have to believe that our Guru Sahibaan are one with Vaheguru just as they were, when they were with body, and also retain a separate identity in Sachkhand. They listen to our pleas today just as they did when they had human body.

Quote:
3) Gurmat talks about Sad-jeevan (everlasting life) and sad-jeevan in full bliss. One cannot have bliss if one loses surti i.e. identity or consciousness. If jeev gets merged in Vaheguru in such way as Advaita Vedanta suggests, then this jeev cannot be in Anand since in order to enjoy Anand, one has to have an identity. Without consciousness one cannot have anand. & 4) What's the point of doing bhagti if you are to get anihilated i.e. destroyed. To me this seems like a suicide. Why would someone do it?

-I think what sant ji was saying is that the the sense of being separate (which is created by ego) is abolished, it does not mean consciousness is destroyed. In Bachittar Natak, Guru ji refers to his state before taking Avtar. He wrote that he became one with God. Gurbani also states that the soul bride becomes one with God, merges with God

If this is what they are saying as you write above, then I totally agree with them. And what a beautiful example you have given. Siri Guru Dasmesh jee clearly states in Bachitter Natak that he became one with Vaheguru, yet it is seen that Vaheguru jee gives them order to go to Earth and revive Dharma. This is a Wonderful example that clearly shows what this daas has been insisting for so long. Even though Siri Dasmesh jee was already one with Vaheguru jee yet they retained their identity and consciousness and this is why all those questions and answers take place between Vaheguru jee jee and Dasmesh jee. In the end, Siri Dasmesh jee bow their head before Vaheguru jee and agree to come to Earth to revive Dharma. This proves that Jeev and Ishwar both exist even though they become one.

Quote:
5) This definition of salvation is against what all other mahapurakhs have described. Sikh salvation is entry into Sachkhand or Begumpura. This Sachkhand as per description given by Gurbani and Gursikhs who have reached there is not such that is without Bhagats. It is full of Bhagats who reside there enjoying everlasting life and bliss.
-Sachkhand is an avastha, one who is jeevanmukt is at the avastha of bhramgian, they are in sachkhand. Begampura also refers to this avastha. It also exists as a place, I believe, for after the bhramgyani leaves the sareer. No sant who has had darshan of sachkhand actually writes that it is any different as far as I know.

Since you agree that Sachkhand is a dwelling where all approved Bhagats reside after they leave this body, I have nothing more to say.

My only issue is that Advaita Vedant is being presented as a Gurmat philosophy by many Sikh scholars. It is grave injustice to Gurmat to do so. Gurmat is unique and I have seen that it does not fit in any schools of thoughts offered by Advaita, Vishesh Advaita or Dvaita schools of thought. Gurmat is unique. It's got similarities in some aspects with many schools but it has a unique philosophy of being that is sanctioned directly by Vaheguru himself.

Daas,
Kulbir Singh

Re: Sant Harkhowal jee's thoughts on merging into Vaheguru
Posted by: Anonymous User (IP Logged)
Date: August 19, 2008 08:53AM

Gurfateh

Advait means no second.As Akal only exists and rests are nothing but Akal so Advait is in conformity with Gurmat but we have devotion facter,facter of himbleness which is absent in Advaitism before Gurmat came.

Haumai Vada Rog Hai Daru Bhi is Mai(correct das if wrong lines are writan).

Re: Sant Harkhowal jee's thoughts on merging into Vaheguru
Posted by: Aadsach (IP Logged)
Date: August 19, 2008 10:17AM

Harcharan Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Veer Kulbir Singh Ji,
>
> One question - I respect the approach you have
> taken above i.e. giving respect to Sant Ji yet
> questioning their opinion respectfully etc, you
> have done this as though you are willing to open
> mindedly debate - implying there is a possibilty
> that you may change your opinion if a good
> arguement is put forward.
>
> I am just interested to know, in all honesty,
> would you (and have you) ever disagreed with a
> theory or opinion of Bhai Randhir Singh Ji - i.e.
> you are implying that Sant Ji could be wrong (with
> all duerespect of course) but would you agree the
> same could also be true for Bhai Randhir Singh
> Ji.
>
> I apologise if this seems off topic, but I feel
> any vichaar/discussion is a complete waste of time
> if participants are already predisposed to a
> certain opinion and are unlikely to ever disagree
> with or change their inherited thought (via their
> role model) - as this would put them at odds with
> their sangat/jathaa.
>
> I hope you will understand why I am bringing up
> this point.
>
> Dhanvaad.

I completly agree with veer ji above, could not have been put more honestly. Please, please, please can we refrain from this attitude of always trying find fault in anothers but never in those from in "our" jatha.

Just my humble benti, im sorry if this offends any veer or bhenji but dass certainly found this thread very disturbing,

bhull chak mafi,
Forever the dust of your charen

Re: Sant Harkhowal jee's thoughts on merging into Vaheguru
Posted by: xzik101 (IP Logged)
Date: August 19, 2008 11:07AM

AadSach Jee,

We all respect and honour Harkowalwalay Sant regardless of ones personal group affiliation. No one is saying anything against Sant Jee which one might find "disturbing", if anything, Sant Jee has been shown utmost respect. I think that Kulbir Singh Jee started this thread to just discuss whether or not Gurmat is Advait as alot of people have now begun to think that Advaidvaad is Gurmat. Kulbir Singh has made some valid points on this topic using Gurbani and only Gurbani.

I think we can we also discuss this topic using the standard of Gurbani it would be more productive for this discussion as many people like me can learn alot about Gurmat in the process. For those of us who may not have access to alot of books, it's only from such discussions that we can learn alot about various philosophies.

Re: Sant Harkhowal jee's thoughts on merging into Vaheguru
Posted by: Sunsingh (IP Logged)
Date: August 19, 2008 01:44PM

kulbir singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> 3) Gurmat talks about Sad-jeevan (everlasting
> life) and sad-jeevan in full bliss. One cannot
> have bliss if one loses surti i.e. identity or
> consciousness. If jeev gets merged in Vaheguru in
> such way as Advaita Vedanta suggests, then this
> jeev cannot be in Anand since in order to enjoy
> Anand, one has to have an identity. Without
> consciousness one cannot have anand. & 4) What's
> the point of doing bhagti if you are to get
> anihilated i.e. destroyed. To me this seems like a
> suicide. Why would someone do it?
>
> -I think what sant ji was saying is that the the
> sense of being separate (which is created by ego)
> is abolished, it does not mean consciousness is
> destroyed. In Bachittar Natak, Guru ji refers to
> his state before taking Avtar. He wrote that he
> became one with God. Gurbani also states that the
> soul bride becomes one with God, merges with God
>
> If this is what they are saying as you write
> above, then I totally agree with them. And what a
> beautiful example you have given. Siri Guru
> Dasmesh jee clearly states in Bachitter Natak that
> he became one with Vaheguru, yet it is seen that
> Vaheguru jee gives them order to go to Earth and
> revive Dharma. This is a Wonderful example that
> clearly shows what this daas has been insisting
> for so long. Even though Siri Dasmesh jee was
> already one with Vaheguru jee yet they retained
> their identity and consciousness and this is why
> all those questions and answers take place between
> Vaheguru jee jee and Dasmesh jee. In the end, Siri
> Dasmesh jee bow their head before Vaheguru jee and
> agree to come to Earth to revive Dharma. This
> proves that Jeev and Ishwar both exist even though
> they become one.
>

It seems we are both in agreement with Baba ji than. When he is talking about loss of identity, I think this metaphor may clarify: A glass of water has a separate identity from the ocean. But when dumped into the ocean the water loses it's separate identity (shape of glass) and becomes one with the ocean. But the water that existed in the glass now still remains in existence in the ocean, it is not destroyed, But it now has lost the identity given from the glass. yet it is the same water (atma).

kulbir singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> My only issue is that Advaita Vedant is being
> presented as a Gurmat philosophy by many Sikh
> scholars. It is grave injustice to Gurmat to do
> so. Gurmat is unique and I have seen that it does
> not fit in any schools of thoughts offered by
> Advaita, Vishesh Advaita or Dvaita schools of
> thought. Gurmat is unique. It's got similarities
> in some aspects with many schools but it has a
> unique philosophy of being that is sanctioned
> directly by Vaheguru himself.


In answering a question on Advaid Vedant baba ji answers we must become rahit from duality, which is achieved only through gurprasad. By having knowledge alone people may get hauamai, so prema bhagti is required. So we see in this manner how advait vedant fits into Gurmat. See the beginning of part 5 for more on this.

Re: Sant Harkhowal jee's thoughts on merging into Vaheguru
Posted by: singh05 (IP Logged)
Date: August 19, 2008 06:25PM

what is the difference between Jeev and Ishwar?

Re: Sant Harkhowal jee's thoughts on merging into Vaheguru
Posted by: Anonymous User (IP Logged)
Date: August 20, 2008 07:37AM

ssa

waste fo time discussing things you cannot possible know about. these things your talk of are just your imagination. its all man- mal (dirt of mind). reading books written by speculators (people who dont know anything about anything- just interpreting what others have said) is all kachi bani- will just lead you into stupidity.

likewise with studying all these philosophies- you will just land yourself in a pitt. its all superficial knowledge.

one thing though people appear to thing sachkhand is a kind of heaven where people reside. Japuji says it clearly in one line (paraphrase) 'sach khand vasai nirankar'. In Sach Khand resides That-Without-Form. how then can this be a place where forms of personalities are waling around? We cannot even conceive of Nirankar (That Without Form) because the mind itself depends on forms. Formlessness is inconceivable, so what we imagine it to be can never be it. and that is all the mind can do- imagine and project things.

who is this person they have interviewed? what is his experience? is he jeevan-mukt? otherwise why is anything he says to be accepted on any level? is he just
repeating what he has read or heard else where? i mean no disrespect.

Re: Sant Harkhowal jee's thoughts on merging into Vaheguru
Posted by: N30 S!NGH (IP Logged)
Date: August 20, 2008 08:30AM

Gurfateh Bhai Kulbir Singh Ji,

Looking at previous extreme long debates/discussion between you, Jsingh and avidya. There is not much to debate on this topic, both sides are pretty much covered premi who are khoji can read upon this previous thread from old archives titled "Condition of Bhagats in the Darbar of Vaheguru" and decide it themselves, i m writing a post to further clarify stance of mindset who beleives vajood is indeed lost when this jev leaves the body and attains bedah mukht avastha.

Based on my discussion with gurmukhs (sant jagjit singh ji harkhowale, gyani gurdev singh ji) on this topic...this what i have gathered soo far.

- Gurbani is sometimes very direct like an arrow..sometimes updesh in gurbani has
ishara/ramaza and its indirect. It's open to your interpretation based on your
surti and avastha. Gurbani agam agad bodh is above than vikayaran cannot be bound by vikayaran. When sri guru harkrishan maharaj did kirpa on gunga(mute) person to break ahankar of pandit by getting gunga do antriv arths of bhagvad gita, which vikayaran he was taught? That was bhagvad gita, We are talking about sri guru granth sahib ji which is shrimoni of all, moorat of agam agad bodh.

- Gurbani updesh is meant for three categories/avastha of people- Kanisht, Madham , Utam.

- Gurbani updesh is not meant for one avastha or one category type of people. For eg- Updesh given to paapi that he/she will have to go narak/chaurasi lakh joun, take bari of naam to across this worldy ocean, updesh given to madham to further elevate themselves from maya and do more naam abhyaas to get rom rom avastha, message for bhramgyanis are ekta wale shabad.

- Both great panthic figures agree when jevan mukht avastha wale leaves his body person attains bedah mukht avastha, this jev totally merges into Vahiguroo. You may call this annihilation which is quite frankly an "insult" to nirgun roop of vahiguroo because you are not merging into nothingness or shuniya, you are merging into nirgun parbhram vahiguroo which is sarab vyapay which gurbani mentions in many places- jaap sahib, japji, sukhmani, akal ustat, gyan probodh.

However, as sant ji said on a same token when i asked him- how come premis do get darshan of previous mahapursh who have left their body, his answer aligns with gurmat. Vahiguroo is both nirgun and sargun, based on sharda of premis and based on their pictorial imagination of mahapursh, vahiguroo transcendent its attributes into sargun saroop and give them darshan.

- Then question here comes down in gurbani there are many places which we have read gurbani talks about how there is place- begumpura, baikhunt and there are gurmukhs resides there who are also jevan mukht and there is also autiobiography of sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj came in to benefit man kind. All above are direct relations with avtar theory in sikhi/sharda of based on their pictorial imagination of mahapursh, state of avastha, along with those choosen ones are sent by paratma or given task/ chooses one are in baikhunt/begumpura.

Choosen ones before becoming choosen ones also get merged with vahiguroo looses their vajood and then vahiguroo himself transcendent, its attributes into sargun saroop and give its sargun saroop to do certain task, hakum whether hakum is to transcendent into this earth as different forms of avtar(different kala) based on different needs or hakum is to transcendent into sukhsham sirar and reside into baikhunt/begumpura meditate on its own naam. It his leela as gurbani says: sachkhand vase nirankar kar kar vekhe nadar nihal ||.

i have a question to ask, why sikhi has to be black and white dharam?. People may make sikhi black and white but they cannot make divine law black and white.

Above gurmukh pyares advised me - its not wise to do khandan of sachkhand/baikhunt being realms where choosen gurmukhs resides nor its wise to do khandan of beleif in sikhi that there is total merge/milaap in vahiguroo where one's vajood is lost.

Both beleifs are correct and are equally supported by gurbani. Gurbani supports meta reality and does not have one reality in context of sachkhand because gurbani updesh based on person surti, varies from person surti to surti. In bedah mukht avastha there is no such thing as higher or lower surti. It has everything to do with how you perceive vahiguroo/guru sahiban.

Bhai Randhir Singh ji gave their interpretation of sachkhand as realm how they preceive guru sahiban backed up with gurbani. Sant Isher singh ji rara sahib, hoti mardan, harkhowale, reru sahib bhramgyanis gave their interpertation of sachkhand as avastha, there is total merge/milaap in vahiguroo where one's vajood is destroyed and lost which is also backed up with gurbani.

The problem is human nature, its our human fitrat that if one way is right, other way has to be wrong. Gurbani is immune from this human fitrat. Gurbani supports meta reality based on individuality surti/experiences/perception and how gurbani giving updesh to three state of mind.

In layman terms, black person may perceive angel of death(jamdoot) as black, white person may preceive angel of death as white, brown person may preceive angel of death as brown. Usually human fitrat is only one could be right answer and thats the way it is, so here starts arguing, i m right you are wrong, no he is black, no he is white, no he is brown then when they die, they all see angel of death as what they perceived and felt really pity on their silliness why they fighting for among themselves.

Divine laws is not bound to right or wrong but perception of jaiagaso/shardlu.

Here are few of many references from gurbani , belows which also supports total merges theory without presence of any individualistic vajood.

1. Sri Akaal Ustat

ਜੈਸੇ ਏਕ ਆਗ ਤੇ ਕਨੂਕਾ ਕੋਟਿ ਆਗ ਉਠੈ ਨਿਆਰੇ ਨਿਆਰੇ ਹੁਇ ਕੈ ਫੇਰਿ ਆਗ ਮੈ ਮਿਲਾਹਿਂਗੇ ॥
जैसे एक आग ते कनूका कोटि आग उठै निआरे निआरे हुइ कै फेरि आग मै मिलाहिंगे ॥
Just as millions of sparks are created from the fire; although they are different entities, they merge in the same fire.

ਜੈਸੇ ਏਕ ਧੂਰਿ ਤੇ ਅਨੇਕ ਧੂਰਿ ਪੂਰਤ ਹੈ ਧੂਰਿ ਕੇ ਕਨੂਕਾ ਫੇਰ ਧੂਰਿ ਹਿ ਸਮਾਹਿਂਗੇ
जैसे एक धूरि ते अनेक धूरि पूरत है धूरि के कनूका फेर धूरि हि समाहिंगे
Just as from of waves are created on the surface of the big rivers and all the waves are called water.

ਜੈਸੇ ਏਕ ਨਦ ਤੇ ਤੰਰਗ ਕੋਟਿ ਉਪਜਤ ਹੈਂ ਪਾਨਿ ਕੇ ਤਰੰਗ ਸਬੈ ਪਾਨਿ ਹੀ ਕਹਾਹਿਂਗੇ ॥
जैसे एक नद ते तंरग कोटि उपजत हैं पानि के तरंग सबै पानि ही कहाहिंगे ॥
Similarly the animate and inanimate objects come out of the Supreme Lord; having been created from the same Lord, they merge in the same Lord. 17.87.



2.

Jiu Jal Mahi Jalu Aai Khatana
Jaisey Jal Mein Jal Aa Milta Hai

Tiu Joti Sangi Joti Samana
Usi Tarah Vahiguroo Jyoti Mein Jyoti Milti Hai

Miti Gaey Gavan Paaey Bisraam
Aana Jaana Mit Jaata Hai, Aaraam Paa Leta Hai

Nanak Prabh Kay Sad Kurbaan
Hey Nanak! Prabhu Ke Sada Kurbaan Jaata Hoo

3. Soraj Kiran Milli Jal ka Jaal hoya Raam Joti Jot Rali Sampuran thiya Raam ||

4. atma paratma iko kare antar ki dubta antar maraie ||

5. santan ki mehima kavan vakhanou agad bodh kuch ant na janoo |

6. brahm deesay brahm suniai ek ek vakhaaniai
Aatm pusaaraa karanahaaraa prabh binaa jaaniai ||

7. nirgun thae sargun dhrisattaaran

8. ਉਦਕ ਸਮੁੰਦ ਸਲਲ ਕੀ ਸਾਖਿਆ ਨਦੀ ਤਰੰਗ ਸਮਾਵਹਿਗੇ ॥
oudhak samundh salal kee sakhia nadhee tharang samavehigae ||
Like drops of water in the water of the ocean, and like waves in the stream, I merge in the Lord.

ਸੁੰਨਹਿ ਸੁੰਨੁ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਸਮਦਰਸੀ ਪਵਨ ਰੂਪ ਹੋਇ ਜਾਵਹਿਗੇ ॥੧॥
sunnehi sunn milia samadharasee pavan roop hoe javehigae ||1||
Merging my being into the Absolute Being of God, I have become impartial and transparent, like the air. ||1||

ਬਹੁਰਿ ਹਮ ਕਾਹੇ ਆਵਹਿਗੇ ॥
bahur ham kahae avehigae ||
Why should I come into the world again?

ਆਵਨ ਜਾਨਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਤਿਸੈ ਕਾ ਹੁਕਮੈ ਬੁਝਿ ਸਮਾਵਹਿਗੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
avan jana hukam thisai ka hukamai bujh samavehigae ||1|| rehao ||
Coming and going is by the Hukam of His Command; realizing His Hukam, I shall merge in Him. ||1||Pause||

9. Ram Kabir Ik Paie Hai Koi Sakaie Paichanaie..

10. Kabir Jis Maran Jagat daraie mera man anand, maran hai paie poora parmanand ||

Kabir ji talks about after leaving the body, he will receive poora parmanand, one may question which poora parmanand he is talking about? that poora paramanad is merging with vahiguroo and loosing its existence. One may question why bhagat kabir ji talks about poora parmanand when he is about to lost his vajood/consciousness that feel parmanand after leaving his own body ?? Because kabir ji referring to poora parmanand to vahiguroo ji himself since he realized that there is nothing besides vahiguroo ji... Vahiguroo ji is poora parmanand, vahiguroo ji is sarabvyapak and continue his own lela via daiv shakti.

Gurfateh Ji.

~Puratan MangalCharan ~

Firstly meditating upon Aatam Dev
Nirmal Jot, of Sat Chit Anand Svaroop

Then I bow to the lotus feet of Ishtadev
SatGuru Maharaj, Dasaan Patshahian di Jot

Finally I offer salutations to my Gurdev/Murshid
, under whose guidance.
All efforts blossom forth

Sat Sri Akaal !

Re: Sant Harkhowal jee's thoughts on merging into Vaheguru
Posted by: Harcharan Singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 20, 2008 10:30AM

Excellent post Veer N30 Singh Ji.

Re: Sant Harkhowal jee's thoughts on merging into Vaheguru
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 21, 2008 07:35AM

Veer N3O jeeo,

Quote:

- Gurbani is sometimes very direct like an arrow..sometimes updesh in gurbani has
ishara/ramaza and its indirect. It's open to your interpretation based on your
surti and avastha.

I agree that Gurbani is sometimes Ramzee and also that Gurbani contains updesh for all levels of spirituality.

Quote:
Gurbani agam agad bodh is above than vikayaran cannot be bound by vikayaran.

Here I am finding it hard to agree. This is because of my study of Gurbani viyakaran. There is a viyakaran for Gurbani. I have a feeling that you misunderstand the term viyakaran. You can't have a language or a script without viyakaran. Every language has nouns, verbs, pronouns, adjectives etc and Gurbani too contains all these. It's just the way pronouns, verbs, nouns, singular nouns, plural nouns are presented in Gurbani, that is unique. A singular noun will have certain spellings and a plural noun will have it's own rules. These rules of viyakaran have been applied consistently throughout Gurbani. If you could spare some time, I can prove to you how Gurbani has a viyakaran. No one can doubt it.

Having a viyakaran does not mean that Gurbani has been bound in it. This is a wrong way of looking at it. I would say that more perfect a language or a script is, more perfect it's viyakaran would be. Gurbani is the most exalted Katha in the world and its viyakaran too is.


Quote:
When sri guru harkrishan maharaj did kirpa on gunga(mute) person to break ahankar of pandit by getting gunga do antriv arths of bhagvad gita, which vikayaran he was taught?

Siri Guru jee opened the doors of wisdom (including Sanskrit viyakaran) when they did kirpa on this person who did arth of Srimad Bhagwat Gita. I doubt the jheevar did arths opposite to the viyakaran of Sanskrit.


Quote:
- Both great panthic figures agree when jevan mukht avastha wale leaves his body person attains bedah mukht avastha, this jev totally merges into Vahiguroo. You may call this annihilation which is quite frankly an "insult" to nirgun roop of vahiguroo because you are not merging into nothingness or shuniya, you are merging into nirgun parbhram vahiguroo which is sarab vyapay which gurbani mentions in many places- jaap sahib, japji, sukhmani, akal ustat, gyan probodh.

I have no qualms over merging into Vaheguru. We all agree that the merger takes place but where we differ is if this merger annihilates the jeev. I have given Gurbani parmaans to prove that jeev is abinaashi. Furthermore, the example of Siri Dasmesh jee is so perfect to prove this point. Siri Guru jee clearly states that he and Vaheguru become one from two but then when the need occurred, Vaheguru jee asked Siri Dasmesh jee to go to world to uphold Dharma. This proves that even though they had become one, still Siri Dasmesh jee kept his consciousness and identity. This proves that becoming one in Gurmat does not equal annihilation of the Jeev as is the case in Advaita. In Advaita, they don't really believe in Brahman being separate from Jeev. Furthermore they even believe that Jeev is Brahman and not the other way around. This theory is totally against Gurmat, in my humble opinion.

Quote:
However, as sant ji said on a same token when i asked him- how come premis do get darshan of previous mahapursh who have left their body, his answer aligns with gurmat. Vahiguroo is both nirgun and sargun, based on sharda of premis and based on their pictorial imagination of mahapursh, vahiguroo transcendent its attributes into sargun saroop and give them darshan.


Again there is misunderstanding when it comes to Nirgun and Sargun. According to Gurmat, Vaheguru is not Nirgun in the sense that he has no attributes as is the case with Advaita. Nirgun in Gurmat simply means that he does not have attributes of Trai-Guni Maya. But in any case, Nirgun Vaheguru of Sikhs has attributes. He is loving; he is Nirbhau; He is Nirvair; He is Bhagat-vachhul; He is Dukhbhanjan. The word 'Akal Moorat' in Mool Mantra is a very important term. The word Moorat proves that though he is Nirgun but still he has a Moorat that is comprehensible to his Bhagats.

Many of our Gursikh veers interpret Nirgun in the same way as Advaita interprets i.e. that he is an impersonal God without any feelings. This is not true.

Now coming to what you have written above and what Sant jee said about Vaheguru taking form of Mahapurakhs and giving darshan to seekers on Earth. Pray, tell me why would Vaheguru jee do this, when the Mahapurakh who have become one with im are still in existence. If Siri Dasmesh jee kept his identity and when time can he was sent to Earth, why not the same treatment with other Mahapurakhs? Why do we think that they have been annihilated and now Vaheguru has to take on their form to go to Earth? This goes against the philosophy of Gurmat which is proven by Siri Dasmesh jee's incident.


Quote:
- Then question here comes down in gurbani there are many places which we have read gurbani talks about how there is place- begumpura, baikhunt and there are gurmukhs resides there who are also jevan mukht and there is also autiobiography of sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj came in to benefit man kind. All above are direct relations with avtar theory in sikhi/sharda of based on their pictorial imagination of mahapursh, state of avastha, along with those choosen ones are sent by paratma or given task/ chooses one are in baikhunt/begumpura.

Choosen ones before becoming choosen ones also get merged with vahiguroo looses their vajood and then vahiguroo himself transcendent, its attributes into sargun saroop and give its sargun saroop to do certain task, hakum whether hakum is to transcendent into this earth as different forms of avtar(different kala) based on different needs or hakum is to transcendent into sukhsham sirar and reside into baikhunt/begumpura meditate on its own naam. It his leela as gurbani says: sachkhand vase nirankar kar kar vekhe nadar nihal ||.

All that is written in the above quote is not sanctioned by Gurbani. In essense what you are saying is that first Mahapurakhs merge in Vaheguru and loose vajood. Where does it say in Gurbani that they lose consciousness or vajood. Merging is fine and we all agree with it but Gurbani does not say that they jeev looses consciousness and identity. Quite to the contrary, Siri Dasmesh jee's incident of becoming one with Vaheguru and then being sent to world proves that even after being one with Vaheguru, he retained his identity. This I would say is the case of Achintiya Abhedabhed i.e. Ishvar and Jeev being one and two at the same time. This is Achintiya because it cannot be fathomed by us.

Quote:
i have a question to ask, why sikhi has to be black and white dharam?. People may make sikhi black and white but they cannot make divine law black and white.

We may not know all the rules but I think Gurmat is Achal i.e. same through the ages. If a certain thing is a sin, it's a sin. Period. Naam is good. It's good. Period. In this sense Gurmat is Black and White. The path of spirituality that Gurmat preaches is one and not several. There is only one Vaheguru and one path to Vaheguru. Gurmat does not acknowledge any other path. Please show me through Gurbani where it recognizes any other path, other than Naam maarag of Gurmat. There is only one Satguru and there is only one Vaheguru. Same way there is only one Gurmat Naam that can take one to Vaheguru. This seems quite Black and white to me.

Gurmat is not Rang-Birangi. Gurmat is not such that Dastaar vee theek hai te bodi vee theek hai. Gurmat is not like keeping kesh is okay too and cutting them is okay too. Gurmat is not like not doing 4 bajjar kurehits is okay and doing them is okay too. Where is the flexibility? Gurmat is Black and White. You are either in Gurmat or you are not in it.


Quote:
Bhai Randhir Singh ji gave their interpretation of sachkhand as realm how they preceive guru sahiban backed up with gurbani. Sant Isher singh ji rara sahib, hoti mardan, harkhowale, reru sahib bhramgyanis gave their interpertation of sachkhand as avastha, there is total merge/milaap in vahiguroo where one's vajood is destroyed and lost which is also backed up with gurbani.

I don't think Gurbani sanctions both of these ideas. Gurbani does say of merging and does say of being one with Vaheguru but the example of Siri Dasmesh jee proves beyond doubt that being one does not mean annihilation of the jeev.

A friend of mine who is with Rara Sahib samprada narrated to me a very interesting story. He said that Jathedar Baba jee (Baba Mahinder Singh jee) told his close companions that many times Baba jee has gone to Sachkhand but everytime he goes there, 'Vadde Maharaaj' (Sant Ishar Singh Rarewale) orders him to go back as it's not his time to come yet. This proves that according to RaraSahib Samprada too Sachkhand is a dwelling of Bhagats.

Similarly reading Baba Jawala Singh Harkhowal's jeevan, I recall reading about Sachkhand and how bhagat live there.

The very fact that it's Sach-Khand and not Sach-Avastha proves that Sachkhand is a place albiet not like Earth i.e. it's beyond the trai-Guni Maaya.


Quote:
Divine laws is not bound to right or wrong but perception of jaiagaso/shardlu.

This in my opinion is a very misleading quote. Divine laws are absolute Truth and therefore not subject to change depending on one's avastha or shardha. Worldly laws of maya are objective truth and change according to one's avastha but the divine laws are as divine and truth as their creator Vaheguru. Vaheguru is a personality that does not change according to our perception. Vaheguru is Vaheguru and his nature, his personality is not changeable. Same way his laws are Sach that are not subject to change depending on one's avastha or shardha, unless there is a provision in them for change.

I speak with all honesty that my intention is not to change anyone's views about the science of being. It was just to bring forth the Gurmat point of view, as I see it. I don't claim to know the absolute truth and what I have written is just based on my understanding of things. I know one thing for sure. I don't want the merger that will annihilate me. I want Sad-jeevan that Guru Sahib has promised numerous times in Gurbani. If you, N3O jeeo, want the merger that will destroy your vajood, then I can't say anything. It's your choice. Remember one thing. You will get what you want. ਸਾਈ ਵਸਤੁ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਹੋਈ ਜਿਸੁ ਸਿਉ ਲਾਇਆ ਹੇਤੁ ॥


Kulbir Singh



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