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Author: Kulbir Singh
Date: 02-28-05 20:44
Dear Radhasoami friends,
Let us discuss the Sahansar-dal-Kanwal, Bhanwar Gufa, Parbraham, Kaal, and other Radhasoami notions here.
Justin and other Radhasoami friends, can you give us some Gurbani references to allow us to understand what it means by Sahansar-dal-Kanwal and Bhanwar Gufaa?
What is Satlok and Anami Lok and Alaekh Desh and why have they been listed as being above Sach Khand?
What is Radhasoami or Kul Maalik? Who is Parbraham? Who is Kaal? Are these three same or different?
I know of some very serious seekers in Radhasoami faith but I honestly believe that they are mislead and are wasting their hardwork. I know of one person who is a very serious seeker and talks about Radhasoami faith very passionately. He does 2 hours of sadhna everyday but still when it comes to liquor, he cannot control himself. I cannot envision a Gursikh who does 2 hours of Naam Abhyaas a day and not being able to control himself from drinking liquor or smoking. Gurmat Naam is very powerful and even half an hour a day is enough to save one from doing cardinal sins, if one has at least the basic rehit of Khalsa Matt including 5 kakaars, giving daswandh and basic bibek of not eating from non-amritdharis.
One last thing. I am looking for a serious and positive debate with Radhasoami friends.
Daas,
Kulbir Singh
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Author: justin
Date: 03-01-05 01:36
Kulbir Singh Ji,
Firstly as for your RS friend who do naam abhyas but still drinks liquor should now know that he will not be able to progress spiritually ... if he has taken an oath for a Guru then he should abide with it ....
Moreover ... Kulbir Ji ... just by taking a bad example of a person .. we can not justify that his path is not correct.
I have seen similar bad examples in gursikhs but that doesn't affect my respect for SGGS, Guru Sahibaans ... Gurmat ... Other gursikhs.
.....
Radhasoami as widely believed that the name is due to the fact that Swami Ji's wife's name was Radha. He knew that such comments may arise in future so he stated in His vaani ..
"radha aadi surat ka naam, suami aadi shabd nij dham"
This clarifies his stance that with radha he means the surat/aatma and suami is shabd ... kul maalik ... the almighty.
As we have "shabd guru surat dhun chela"
As many saints give various names to almighty god but that doesn't change Him ... and if another disiple/saint has given one more name .. how does that affects anything ....
...........
I do not know where have you read Satlok and Anami Lok and Alaekh Desh are above sachkhand ... these are all same ... sat means truth ... sach means truth .... why anami is used .... the best example is ... a sufi saint in his book started with a phrase
"uskay naam say shuru karta hun jiska koi naam nahin hai"
.............
Radhasoami and Kul Malik .... its a "lafzon ka her pher" ... otherwise there is just one God .. just different names.
Kaal is different ... he is the one who is managing this duniya made by the God. His work is to take us away from the God ... but the thing is he is also employed by God himself ... the Sat ... the Sach and that is why God sends saints like Jesus, Guru Sahibaan, Kabir Sahib and many more to let us know the truth and to where we belong.
Now here is a paradox ... God employed kaal but still sends saints ... the answer is ... "Naam dhuron likhya aunda hai" ... So whosoever has naam in his prarabhad (not everybody has it) will get it ... kaal will try to stop him/her to realize God .. but its that disciple's love, devotion, naam abhyaas and guru's daya mehar that is going to defeat kaal and make him/her reach the almighty and be one with him.
..................
As for the gurbani references ... I need to admit that my memory is not that sharp as yours ... but I will try to get them for you ...
till then you can post your views on your questions...
Regards
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Author: Kulbir Singh
Date: 03-01-05 09:53
Justin,
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Firstly as for your RS friend who do naam abhyas but still drinks liquor should now know that he will not be able to progress spiritually ... if he has taken an oath for a Guru then he should abide with it ....
Moreover ... Kulbir Ji ... just by taking a bad example of a person .. we can not justify that his path is not correct.
I have seen similar bad examples in gursikhs but that doesn't affect my respect for SGGS, Guru Sahibaans ... Gurmat ... Other gursikhs.
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I stated earlier that this gentleman does sadhna everyday for two hours and also is a very passionate and enthusiastic Radhasoami. Why was RS naam unable to cure him of his drinking problem? I gave you a parallel in Sikhi. If a gursikh keeps basic rehit and does 2 hours of Naam abhyaas he cannot start drinking uncontrollably. Naam is very powerful and one who japps Gurmat Naam gets purified as opposed to drink and smoke. The bad examples you see are of those Sikhs who don't japp naam.
Leave Naam Abhyaas on one side. If you do Gurbani paath loudly i.e. loud enough so that your ears can hear it, your whole body becomes light and fresh. Mind becomes healthy and pure. Gurbani is amrit and when you read baani you are putting amrit in your mouth.
RS people give examples of granthis who read so much baani but don’t get affected by it. The reason why granthis and other professionals doing kirtan and paath don’t get much effect is because they charge money for their sewa and don’t do it for the sake of sewa but for money. If you do paath for spiritual benefit, you cannot escape getting amrit on your tongue.
On the other hand to try to listen to some sound of a bell or drum is such a dry kind of meditation. There is no anand in it and even if one does start to listen to some bells, these are still games of mind. The real thing is when you japp Gurmat Naam, mystical things happen automatically.
There is no two kinds of Naam as you guys state. Naam is Naam and not Varnatmak and Dhunatmak. If there were these two kinds of Naam, then how come it was not mentioned in Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee? Why did Guru Sahib leave out the mention of such an important concept?
The reality is that Gurmat Naam takes on the form of Jyot-Roop as we japp it more and more. The Gurmat Naam is the only out-of-the-world thing in this world and when we rub our surti or our mann with this detergent, it gets purified. Mind cannot purify itself by listening to sounds it itself creates. The sounds of bells are created by the mind. How can mind purify itself with something it created itself? Dirt cannot clean dirt. You need a detergent to clean dirt and this detergent is Gurmat Naam.
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Radhasoami as widely believed that the name is due to the fact that Swami Ji's wife's name was Radha. He knew that such comments may arise in future so he stated in His vaani ..
"radha aadi surat ka naam, suami aadi shabd nij dham"
This clarifies his stance that with radha he means the surat/aatma and suami is shabd ... kul maalik ... the almighty.
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First of all, Radhasoami name was coined by not Shiv Dyal but by Rai Saligraam who was the top disciple of Shiv Dyaal. Please refer to the last will of Shiv Dyaal and you will find that Shiv Dyaal made a reference very clearly that “Radhasoami matt has been founded by Saligraam”. Shiv Dyaal had founded the Sant Matt and not Radhasoami matt. This will of Shiv Dyaal is accepted by all branches of RS including Agra, Beas and Delhi branches.
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I do not know where have you read Satlok and Anami Lok and Alaekh Desh are above sachkhand ... these are all same ... sat means truth ... sach means truth .... why anami is used ....
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Agra branches are upset at Beas for changing the topmost realms. Early RS accounts state that Sach Khand is the fifth level and RS Dhaam is the last level. RSSB wanted to avoid clash with Sikhs and therefore they divided the Sach Khand level into four parts namely Satlok, Anami Desh, Alaekh Desh and Radhasoami Dhaam. All this is not written in Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee. This too proves that all this is false.
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Radhasoami and Kul Malik .... its a "lafzon ka her pher" ... otherwise there is just one God .. just different names.
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Kul Malik and Radhasoami names don’t appear in Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee.
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Kaal is different ... he is the one who is managing this duniya made by the God. His work is to take us away from the God ... but the thing is he is also employed by God himself ... the Sat ... the Sach and that is why God sends saints like Jesus, Guru Sahibaan, Kabir Sahib and many more to let us know the truth and to where we belong.
Now here is a paradox ... God employed kaal but still sends saints ... the answer is ... "Naam dhuron likhya aunda hai" ... So whosoever has naam in his prarabhad (not everybody has it) will get it ... kaal will try to stop him/her to realize God .. but its that disciple's love, devotion, naam abhyaas and guru's daya mehar that is going to defeat kaal and make him/her reach the almighty and be one with him.
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This is such a bhambal-bhoosa that you RS people have. You guys don’t even believe in the singleness of Vaheguru. You believe in five Gods namely Kaal, Brahm, Parbraham, Sohang Purash and Satpurash (same as Kul Malik and RS).
You believe that Kul Malik or the topmost God lives in Sachkhand and the lowest level i.e. this world where we live in is controlled and even built by Kaal a negative force. Since Kul-Maalik can’t even access this land of Kaal he has to send in saints to bring souls back to him. This place is totally controlled by Kaal and God has no influence here. Then the land above this land is called the 2nd level and that is controlled by Brahm who still has some influence of Kaal. The land above Kaal is the land of Parbraham and is beyond of the control of Kaal.
In Gurbani Brahm, Parbraham, Naranjan (the lord of first level Trikuti according to RS) are all one and the same thing. Vaheguru himself controls the whole world and there is no negative force in existence parallel to Vaheguru. Micky mouse demons and spirits are by no means a challenge to Vaheguru.
The surprising thing is that RS does not even believe that this world was build by Vaheguru. They say it was built by Kaal. What a farce. All religions, including Bible, Quran say that Vaheguru built everything including this world.
There are no 5 or 6 gods as RS preaches. God is one and is in full control of everything. Soul does not need to go anywhere. At the first instance, it is Vaheguru who comes to us as opposed to us going to him. Meri Sejidiyai, Adambar baniya and other shabads prove that he is found inside this body. If he is inside the body then why does your surat need to go to Anami desh and Alaekh desh etc ?
Kulbir Singh
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Author: ..
Date: 03-01-05 10:13
whats the Radha Swami Naam?
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Author: Kulbir Singh
Date: 03-01-05 10:24
Radhasoami Naam is the one that is used to initiate newcomers to the Radhasoami faith in Agra the place where this religion originated from. The Beas branch that was founded by Jaimal Singh started the matt of 5 names that are as follows:
Jyot Naranjan, Oankaar, Rarankaar, Sohang, Satnaam.
They japp these five names and then they try to listen to the sound of bells in the right part of their brain. This the beginning state. When they start hearing the sound, they also try to see the illuminated picture of their guru inside them. This is the RS meditation in the beginning stages.
Mind plays games and whichever sound they want to listen to, mind creates it for them. The real mysticism is that happens by itself and not by imagining.
Gurmat is totally different from RS matt. I would have no problem with RS if they were not misleading the innocent Sikhs by using Gurbani. The fact that their guru dresses up like Sikhs is a very shady thing to do for them.
Kulbir Singh
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Author: human
Date: 03-01-05 10:29
Kulbir,
I completely agree with you that the name Radhasoami has been given by Rai Saligraam but the fact is explained in the tuk
"radha aadi surat ka naam, suami aadi shabd nij dham"
As for five different levels as per your comment then a scale can be caliberated in any measurements. Length remains the same.
"Waheguru" word never existed before Guru Nanak Dev.
Who says God is not controlling anything? Why was the need of Guru Sahibaan to come if God is doing everything?
Thats why some people give rubbish reason that they can do any number of paaps because not they but the God is getting those things done through them.
The word "Kul Malik" has straight forward meaning ... Kul means complete and for all. Malik is God.
"five Gods namely Kaal, Brahm, Parbraham, Sohang Purash and Satpurash "
is completely biased and incorrect statement.
"The surprising thing is that RS does not even believe that this world was build by Vaheguru" .. this is another statement for the sake of arguement ... no where it is mentioned.
RS also says that you will find God within.
You are talking about Anami desh and Alaekh desh as if they are physical countries and you need to apply for a passport and visa ...
I, in fact, do not need to debate...
If you go to a person and say that you are rich ...that doesn't affect him in any way until and unless you are able to give him anything.
Which naam abhyaas do you do .. if it could not kill your krodh and the way you get agitated ... as it is seen in your messages.
:-)
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Author: justin
Date: 03-01-05 10:46
Kulbir,
This is the way if you answer someone's question ... by putting words in their brains or mouth ... then you have not answered at all.
If someone asks me about sikhism ... I have never said that this path is wrong ...
****admin cut for going off-topic******
Never say that the other path is wrong .. tell people what is good about your own path.
humility is not just word it is an action.
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Author: Kulbir Singh
Date: 03-01-05 12:33
I say this with great afsos that you have not answered my questions and are just talking aal-pataal. I asked you so many questions but you have not answered any.
1) What is Kaal in relation to Kul-Maalik? If Kaal created this world and not Vaheguru as RS preaches, then what is the power of Vaheguru? According to you Vaheguru is sitting in a section of Sachkhand and is not actively controlling the whole world. Kaal a negative power is the god of this world.
This is the first time I have heard this kind of nonsense that God is living in a distant land of Satlok total control over here in our world is of Kaal a negative force. Gurmat preaches that there is only one force and that is Vaheguru. No where in Gurbani it says that Kaal created anything or that it even exists. Just read the first pauri of Siri Asa kee Vaar and it clearly states that Vaheguru created everything and not some negative power called "Kaal".
2) RS has no faith in Kesh. Then why does your guru keep kesh? Your present guru - Gurinder Dhillon used to cut his hair and trim his beard. Why did he stop cutting his beard after he became the guru of RS and why did he start wearing a turban and stop cutting his hair? Obviously it was not because of spiritual reasons since you guys don't believe in any connection between spirituality and kesh. The sole purpose of him wearing turban and long hair is to mislead Sikhs. Can you give any other reason?
3) Where in Gurbani it says that Naranjan, Brahm, Pabraham are different gods? You preach that Naranjan is the god of Trikuti and Brahm of a land above that and Parbraham of the land above that. Sohang Purash is the god of the 4th land and Satnam is the lord of Satlok. Where in Gurbani is any reference to this? Why do you guys mislead people so much?
Naranjan simply means one that is free of anjan i.e. maaiya. Brahm and Parbrahm has been used interchangeably in Gurbani. Sohang does not even qualify as a name of God because it means "So I am". This is a cry that some non-Sikh mystics made when they discovered their own soul. Same way Satnaam does not even qualify to be a name of God. Satnaam means true Naam and in Gurbani "Satnaam" has never been used in the meanings of God.
4) Can you present a single historical proof that Jaimal Singh ever met Shiv Dyaal? Shiv Dyaal wrote hundreds of letters to his devotees during his life but not a single letter to Jaimal Singh. How come? Jaimal Singh wrote so many letters to Sawan Singh and those are very beautiful letters but how come he did not write a single letter to Shiv Dyaal?
5) How did Jaimal Singh become guru? He was not even mentioned in the will. Shiv Dyaal mentioned 3 successors in his will - Rai Saligraam was to lead Radhasoami matt, his wife Radha and Saroop Daas for saadhoos. No mention of Jaimal Singh. How did he become a guru? Where is the historical proof? You have proof of Gurinder Dhillon becoming guru as Charan Singh Grewal left a clear will that was signed two days before he passed away. Where is the proof of Jaimal Singh becoming guru and Sawan Singh becoming guru?
6) Gurbani clearly tells us that everything is obtained within this human body but RS preaches totally opposite of this. They preach that our surat (they call soul - Surat) travels out of this body to higher planes and becomes on with Kul Malik after going through a complicated process. Gurbani says that "SAbh kichh ghar mein, baahar naahi" i.e. everything is in this body and not out of this body. On one hand you say that your soul goes to Satlok to meet God and then you also say that you meet him in this body. What is this Gorakhdhanda?
Hopefully we will hear some answers to these questions as opposed to a lecture on how all religions are same and that we should love others. We already know that we should love others and all gursikhs love everyone including Radhasoamis. That is not the question. See if you can clarify these above stated points.
One last thing. If RSSB stops using Gurbani to preach their faith, we would have no quarrel with them but since they use Gurbani and portray themselves as Sikhs, we have to question your motives.
Kulbir Singh
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Author: AnotherSingh
Date: 03-01-05 12:59
I was once inititiated by some radhasoamis (although I'd never heard the term at the time). Their particular branch taught to NOT meditate on the masters picture as that would be limiting but guess what? They happened to include the ''guru's'' picture in their intro package.
They also advertise their ''spiritual lineage'' as being descended straight from the Sikh Gurus but they claim that Amrit Sanchar is only an empty ceremony which has emotional but not spiritual significance. But when they initiated me I was initiated by some RS devotees who basically just recited the 5 names and gave instructions - we didn't get Amrit.
There are some very interesting internet discussion groups on one of their leaders (who is rightly regarded as a cult leader). Numerous devotees and ex-devotees claim spirit possession from following him. Many also say that they became possessed by spirits when thier ''Guru'' became displeased with them. A wolf in sheep's clothing. Without perfect compassion a person cannot be a perfect guru. This is one of the major dangers of following RS.
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Author: Rashminder Singh
Date: 03-01-05 13:10
excuse me justin radhaswami agent jio............. plssssssssssss answer all the questions arised by bhai sahib kulbir singh ji
wow.. gr8 post bhai kulbir singh ji... i never knew much bout this RSSB but i really appreciate your knowledge about other beliefs too that can be dangerous to gurmat......
Waheguru
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Author: KCF
Date: 03-01-05 15:54
radhaswamis are agents of the indian goverment, their mission is to infiltrate sikhism so that it will become weak!!!
the way that they are preaching is against the ways of sikhi, the sikhs that go to rs that i have come across are those people that have known very little about sikhi and they get lured in!!!!!!!
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Author: Kulwinder Singh
Date: 03-01-05 17:07
To the non Sikhs on this thread,
You can waste lot of energy and time on these talks,
At the end of day, you can not run away from the fact that
"Sab Sikhan ko hukam hai Guru manio Granth"
This is not a advise or a note from Guru Gobind Singh Ji,
It is crystal clear an order,
Never mind who is Satgur, if you are a Sikh then there is no other Guru for you apart from Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj.
Thinking anything which makes you disobey that Order is anti Sikhism act and that person is no longer a Sikh so stop wasting your and our time.
If you are Raha da Swami or Co-raha da swami, you can still enjoy the Gurubani as it is not secret and available for anybody’s benefit but be aware that hurting the sentiments of Gurus and then trying to get benefits from it is not somebody who have dignity would do that, so chose your path and Guru carefully if you like the Gurubani then do not go against the order of Guru Ji and leave any other Guru and accept only Guru Granth Sahib Ji as your Guru.
Although our Guru is most kind and his kindness is not limited to Sikhs exclusively.
But the receiver of the Kindness need to be appreciative at least not to hurt the sentiments of Guru Ji himself or his Sikhs it is basic and fundamental human expectation.
So show some decency.
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Author: gurasikhaa(n) kee har dhhoorr
Date: 03-01-05 22:51
My Dear Bhai Kulbir Singh Ji,
Your posts have been very inspirational, and I must say that I have great pride in seeing a Khalsa single handedly taking on those that wish to bring the panth harm and disrepute.
When reading their thoughts and beliefs (which you have very cabably poked hole after hole in), I cannot help but be reminded of the following shabad from SATGURU Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji:
gourree chaethee
ik oa(n)kaar sathigur prasaadh ||
har jas sunehi n har gun gaavehi ||
baathan hee asamaan giraavehi ||1||
aisae logan sio kiaa keheeai ||
jo prabh keeeae bhagath thae baahaj thin thae sadhaa ddaraanae reheeai ||1|| rehaao ||
aap n dhaehi churoo bhar paanee ||
thih ni(n)dhehi jih ga(n)gaa aanee ||2||
bait(h)ath out(h)ath kuttilathaa chaalehi ||
aap geae aouran hoo ghaalehi ||3||
shhaadd kucharachaa aan n jaanehi ||
brehamaa hoo ko kehiou n maanehi ||4||
aap geae aouran hoo khovehi ||
aag lagaae ma(n)dhar mai sovehi ||5||
avaran hasath aap hehi kaa(n)nae ||
thin ko dhaekh kabeer lajaanae ||6||1||44||
Gauree Chaytee:
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
They do not listen to the Lord's Praises, and they do not sing the Lord's Glories,
but they try to bring down the sky with their talk. ||1||
What can anyone say to such people?
You should always be careful around those whom God has excluded from His devotional worship. ||1||Pause||
They do not offer even a handful of water,
while they slander the one who brought forth the Ganges. ||2||
Sitting down or standing up, their ways are crooked and evil.
They ruin themselves, and then they ruin others. ||3||
They know nothing except evil talk.
They would not even obey Brahma's orders. ||4||
They themselves are lost, and they mislead others as well.
They set their own temple on fire, and then they fall asleep within it. ||5||
They laugh at others, while they themselves are one-eyed.
Seeing them, Kabeer is embarrassed. ||6||1||44||
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Author: justin
Date: 03-02-05 02:23
Kulbir,
We will discuss all issues but let us do one by one...but again keep in mind I am not telling anything Pro RS or Anti SGGS ... I have not taken naam dan yet in RS. I am analysing everything.
And lets only keep ruhaniyat thread alive as the other thread "Debate" is not what I want ... I am interested in ruhaniyat first then I will choose the path ....
Lets take the instrument sounds that you say are fake and wanted me to give references from gurbaani ...
You may not agree to the meaning ... but if you read writings of sufi saints who were before Guru Nanak Dev then they have also mentioned the similar sounds ... that means that they are not fake ... had it not been there why we have their mention in each religion and writings from saints ...eveb vedas talk about the same sounds...
Ghungru...
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Ghungru vajay jay man lagay, tau jam kaha karay mo siu aagay .... Guru Nanak
Naradi narhar jaani haduray, ghungar khadak tiyag visuray .. Gutu Arjun
Bell ...
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Ghanta ja ka suniyay chahu kunt, aasan ja ka sad baikunth
Ja ka chavuru sabh upar jhulay, ta ka dhup sada parfulay ... Guru Arjun
Sankh ...
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Panch sabad nirmail bajay, dhulkay chawar sank ghan gajay .. Beni Sahib
Mridang, Rabab ...
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Tera jan nirat karay gun gaavay, rabab pakhavaj tal ghungru anhad sabad vakaway .. Guru Arjun
bajay bajahi mridang anhad koikil ri, ram naam bolay madhu bain ati suhiya ... Guru Arjun
Sinhi/Singhi ...
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surat sabad sakhi meri singhi bajay lok sunay ... Guru Nanak
singhi sabad sada dhun sohay, ahinas paray naad .. Guru Nanak
Singhi surat anahad waajay ghat ghat jyot tumari ... Guru Nanak
vajay bajhau singhi wajay tau nirbhau pad payeeyay ... Guru Nanak
dhyan ka kar danda, jogi singhi surat vajai ... Guru Amardas
aapay singhi naad hai pyara, dhur aap vajayay aapay ... Guru Ramdas
Toor...
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Nau sar subhar daswain pooray, tah anhat sun vajaweh tooray... Guru Nanak
keh nanak jis satgur pura, vajay ta kay anhad toora.. Guru Arjun
baaris barah ugavay soor, ahinis bajay anhad toor ... Kabir Sahib
saadh sant manaye priy paaye, gun gaayay panch naad toor bajayay .. Guru Arjun
Kingri/Kinkri ...
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ghat ghat vajay kingri, andin sabad subhai ... Guru Nanak
raja ram anhad kingri bajay, ja ki disti naad liv lai ... Kabir Sahib
iu kinkri anoop vaajay, sun jogi ka man mithi lagay .. Guru Arjun
kinkuri anoop vaajay, jogiya matvaro ray ... Guru Arjun
Moh giya banagi jogi, ghat ghat kinguri vai ... Guru Nanak
Ravi sasi laukay ihu tan, kingri vajay sabad nirari ... Guru Nanak
Veena/Beena..
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rahant janam hari darsan leena, bajant nanak sabad beena .. Guru Nanak
Akhand mandal nirankar mahi, anhad benu bajawaugo ... Sant Namdev
Jab kumbhak bharpur leena, tah baajay anhad beena ... Kabir Sahib
Benu rasal vajavay soi, ja ki tribhuvan sojhi hoi ... Guru Nanak
Gur Sabad mela tan suhela bajant anhad beena ... Guru Arjun
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You can find many other references in SGGS.
And for the five mandals that you are stating of RS .... Guru Nanak has named those mandals as
Dharam Khand, Gyan Khand, Saram Khand, Karam Khand, Sach Khand
RS calls them
Sahsdal Kanwal, Trikuti, Dasam Duar, Bhanwar Gufa (Sunn), Satlok
Try to find out about the "bavan akhar" that Guru Nanak Dev mentions.... Aakhar?? Any ideas?? Vedas talk about this as "bavan akshar" ??? WHich 52 akhars????
We will talk about references of kaal in gurbaani next.
Till that time .. you find references stating that there are no five mandals mentioned in SGGS and there are no sounds within. And also refer ... where it is mentioned that sufis, vedas or other religious books do not preach the same thing.
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Author: Kulbir Singh
Date: 03-02-05 09:51
Justin,
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Lets take the instrument sounds that you say are fake and wanted me to give references from gurbaani ...
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You have misunderstood me. What I called fake was not mystical sounds but the RS methodology in attaining them. I won’t be incongruous to mention a very interesting story involving Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee. Once a gursikh came to Bhai Sahib and started talking about Anhad Shabad. He said that he could now clearly hear the bell ring, sometimes the roaring of clouds and even the flute. He wanted to confirm his spiritual state with Bhai Sahib. Bhai Sahib in response to his question said that he does not hear any of these voices and sounds i.e. instrumental sounds. At this he got greatly disheartened.
Bhai Sahib asked him what exactly he was doing while doing abhyaas. He said that he had a black dot on the wall for dhyaan (concentration) and he does one Siri Sukhmani Sahib paath looking at the dot. Then he keeps his mind quiet and tries to listen to the five kind of sounds. After a while he starts hearing a faint sound of bell, waterfall, flute etc. The black dot too illuminates and all this really motivated him and he started thinking that he was listening to Anhad Shabad.
Bhai Sahib did not doubt what he was telling because Bhai Sahib knew that this person was telling the truth. Bhai Sahib told him that they would discuss this again the next day. That day at night Bhai Sahib writes that he sat in Smadhi and tried to hear the five sounds this person was mentioning. He could not hear anything other than Gurmat Anhad Shabad (I will explain this later). Then Bhai Sahib brought down his surtee to a much lower level and he was surprised to hear that all five sounds could be heard at different levels. Bhai Sahib writes that there was not even 1/millionth anand or bliss in these instrumental sounds as compared to the Gurmat Anhad Shabad. Bhai Sahib right away came out of smadhi and immediately went to that gursikh who had asked this question from Bhai Sahib and told him that he was totally engaged in wrong anti-Gurmat practices. Bhai Sahib explained to him his experience and told him that little bit of concentration that he had attained was a result of Siri Sukhmani Sahib paath and he started hearing those instrumental sounds because he wanted to hear them. Bhai Sahib told him that Gurmat Anhad Shabad is way superior to this.
From this saakhi of Bhai Sahib we learn that these five shabads that RS talk about do exist but they are not attained by the way they work on it. Actually these five shabads are the invention or discovery of Yogis and RS has just adopted their theory. Gurmat does not believe in limited 5 shabads. Panch Shabad in Gurbani does not mean 5 Shabad but Panch means superior or greatest shabads. Gurmat believes in “Vajae Shabad Ghanaray” i.e. countless shabads and not only 5.
We all know that in Sach Khand divine praises of Vaheguru are sung and this language in which they are sung is beyond the 5 elements i.e. water, air, earth, fire and sky. Those praises of Vaheguru cannot be defined or explained in this world and can only be heard when our concentration or our mann (mind) goes beyond the 5 elements in Turiya Avastha or Chautha Padd. These praises or sifat-salaah of Vaheguru that goes on in Sach Khand is called Anhad Shabad. Gurbani that we have here in Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee is that baani of Sach Khand that is used to praise Vaheguru. Some how our Guru Sahib did this impossible task of bringing this "dhur kee baani" down here and this is why they wrote in Gurbani as follows:
SEHAJ KATHA PRABH KEE ATT MEETHEE, KATHEE AKATH KAHAANI ||
(Sehaj Katha i.e. Bani of Vaheguru is extremely sweet. The unspeakable or unexplainable katha of Vaheguru has been spoken or explained).
The divine praises of Vaheguru going on in Sach Khand and sung by bhagats there are Anhad Shabads or Anhat Shabads that Gursikhs here hear when they reach Dasam Duaar.
According to the books of Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee Dasam Duaar is not a land of mandal as RS believes in. It is such a doorway or place within the body from where one can experience what is going on in Sach Khand. Dasam Duaar is in our Body and sitting in this human body one can experience the nazaaray of Sach Khand. This is what Dasam Duaar is. Read 38th pauri of Siri Anand Sahib for details on this.
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Ghungru...
Ghungru vajay jay man lagay, tau jam kaha karay mo siu aagay .... Guru Nanak
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The first pankiti is totally talking about something else and it is pathetic how RS tries to use everything to their benefit. You have to read the whole shabad to understand this pankiti.
It starts with “Vidiya Vichaari taan, Parupkaari” i.e. only then one can be called a scholar if one is parupkaari i.e. helping others with his education. Same way only then one is to be called a Teerath Vaasi if one is Panch Rasee i.e. one controls all five bikaars. Only then one’s playing ghungroo or music is successful if one’s mind becomes one with concentration. Only then one can be called a Mendicant or saniyaasi if one is “Aas Niraasi” i.e. controls one’s wishes. If one keeps jatt-satt i.e. keeps free of adultery only then one is a successful householder (kaaiya bhogi). Only then one can be called a jogi if one keeps one’s body pure. Only if one keeps belief to staying pure of mind can one be called a real Jain (Digambar). Only then one is non-violent if one kills one’s mind. In the end Guru Sahib says that who can understand Vaheguru’s doings. He alone is present everywhere. The full shabad is as follows:
aasaa mehalaa 1 choupadhae ||
vidhiaa veechaaree thaa(n) paroupakaaree ||
jaa(n) pa(n)ch raasee thaa(n) theerathh vaasee ||1||
ghu(n)gharoo vaajai jae man laagai ||
tho jam kehaa karae mo sio aagai ||1|| rehaao ||
aas niraasee tho sa(n)niaasee ||
jaa(n) jath jogee thaa(n) kaaeiaa bhogee ||2||
dhaeiaa dhiga(n)bar dhaeh beechaaree ||
aap marai avaraa neh maaree ||3||
eaek thoo hor vaes bahuthaerae ||
naanak jaanai choj n thaerae ||4||25||
Just because you see the word “Ghungroo” does not mean that it is referring to the RS Ghungroo or some mystical sound.
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Naradi narhar jaani haduray, ghungar khadak tiyag visuray .. Gutu Arjun
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Then alone is one a true Raasdhaariya i.e. followers of Chatiniya Mahaprabhu who used to play characters of Krishna and Rama and used to sing and dance in ecstasy, if one considers Vaheguru always present. The sound of ghungroos that they used to wear in their feet while dancing as Radha and Krishna, for gursikhs is to give up all worries. In other words Gursikhs do Raas of considering Vaheguru present and play sound of ghungroos by staying free of worries.
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Bell
Ghanta ja ka suniyay chahu kunt, aasan ja ka sad baikunth
Ja ka chavuru sabh upar jhulay, ta ka dhup sada parfulay ... Guru Arjun
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Here Siri Guru Arjun Dev jee is comparing the worship of an idol called Saalgiraam to the Gurmat way of worshipping Vaheguru. Instead of the bell that resounds in the temple, Gursikhs see his hukam resounding the whole world. Ghanta according to RS is the beginning state of spirituality i.e. the state that is still in the control of Kaal the negative force. Guru Arjun Sahib is not talking about the Radhasoami bell her but of the hukam of Vaheguru that is resounding everywhere. The whole shabad like the previous shabads is a comparison between Salgiraam worship and Vaheguru-worship that Gursikhs do. Nothing to do with some bells that RS talk about.
Same way all the other shabads about Sankh, Kingree, Beena etc. talk about different things and at many times are used as metaphors to compare with Yogi mysticism. These words Kingree, Beena etc. are Yogic terminology that Guru Sahib adopted and gave them a new meaning just as Guru Sahib redefined Pandit, Brahmin, Muslim and other such words.
In any case, I did not dispute the existence of Yogic five instrumental sounds and as it is evident from the story I narrated in the beginning of this post that these sounds do exist but firstly they are of a very inferior nature and secondly the Radhasoamis methodology of attaining these sounds is totally flawed as stated by my earlier post. If you want to hear something you will hear it. If RS had been doing some simran and if these sounds had come as a result of that simran, then I would have been okay but to sit and try to hear a sound coming from the right hand side of your head is nothing but a farce.
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And for the five mandals that you are stating of RS .... Guru Nanak has named those mandals as
Dharam Khand, Gyan Khand, Saram Khand, Karam Khand, Sach Khand
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I have written about the Mandals or Khands many time on this forum and you can search and find out yourself. Gurbani clearly states the existence of 5 mandals but not 5 gods as you guys believe in. And these Khands or mandals are not the route through which a Gursikh soul has to pass by. Our spiritual journey does not involve going anywhere but finding everything right in this human body. It is Vaheguru that comes to his Sohagani. Mann Chayo bhaiya, Prabh Aagam Suniya and oher shabads like this prove that it is Vaheguru that comes to sej of the Gursikh right in the nij-ghar of this body.
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Sahsdal Kanwal, Trikuti, Dasam Duar, Bhanwar Gufa (Sunn), Satlok
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None of these except for Satlok qualifies to be a mandal. These are not mandals. At least your gurus should have chosen names suitable for mandals. Maybe they were not well-versed in grammar and had no knowledge of the language. This is why they chose to call Trikuti, Dasam Duaar and Sunn Guffa a mandal. Dasam Duaar is not a mandal but a doorway or place in this body from where one can enjoy the bliss of Sach Khand.
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Try to find out about the "bavan akhar" that Guru Nanak Dev mentions.... Aakhar?? Any ideas?? Vedas talk about this as "bavan akshar" ??? WHich 52 akhars????
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52 Akhars are 52 alphabets of Sanskrit. Using each alphabet of Baavan Akhree Guru Sahib has given updesh or lesson to Sikhs. In the baani named Pattee and Pattee Likhee Guru Sahib has used the Punjabi alphabets to give updesh of each alphabet.
Instead of diverting the issue, I urge you to answer the questions I raised in my previous post, one by one. Please answer those questions and we can move further. In the last post you just answered questions I never raised. I never said that instrumental sounds did not exist. I had said that the RS meditation to acquire them is flawed as it is their mind playing games with them and they are not hearing any real mystical sounds. Same way about the mandals, I myself have written on this site many times about the Khand but I was questioning the validity and veracity of the Mandals that RS has mentioned. Some of the names do not even qualify as names for mandals. Trikuti is a point on the forehead. I don’t know how you can call it a mandal or a sphere or a khand. How can you call Sahsdalkanwal a mandal? Same is true for Dasam Duaar too.
Kulbir Singh
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Author: BHOPINDER SINGH
Date: 03-02-05 10:32
JUSTIN
time and again kulbir singh is asking you one question
Exactly! According to you it does not aid in kiling ego and other vikaars. Then why did Gurinder Dhillon, your present guru started growing hair and beard and wearing a turban after he became a guru? You don’t believe there is a connection in hair and spirituality. Then why did he start wearing turban? The answer according to my budhi is to mislead Sikhs. Can’t think of any other reason. Please let me know if you can figure out a reason
you have not answered it why
instead you are doing hotch potch give a direct answer
if you are a man
dont take it here and their
je apne guru da aaa ta bandian wang gal kar jawab dee
bh........... terr jawab to clear aa tu ma.......... direct agent aaa
spineless te gutlesss aaa
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Author: Kulbir Singh
Date: 03-02-05 11:16
Here are some more questions for you Justin:
1) All through Sawan Singh’s reign, there used to be two langars – one for scheduled castes and other for high caste Khatrees who had become followers of RS. How was this fair? Don't say this never happened because the Western followers of Sawan Singh have written about this in their notes. Is this kind of characteristic befitting a true Guru?
2) When Charan Singh was declared guru, he did not want to be one and was very surprised to be one. According to him he was very reluctant to become a guru. If Guru-jyot had passed on to him, why did he not start giving Naam right away? Why did he wait so long?
Same way Gurinder Dhillon was caught off-guard and did not give Naam for so long. He was doing abhyaas they say. If Guru-jyot had entered him, he would have had all power. Why did he wait? The reason is that they were getting training in how to be a guru and how to act like a guru.
3) Shiv Dyaal used to smoke huqqa. How come he could not give up his addiction to smoking if he was a true guru? To others he preached so many things but himself he could not even give up smoking. How was he a true guru then? Have you ever heard of any other bhagat including Bhagat Kabir jee, Bhagat Farid jee etc smoking or being addicted to anything? Don’t even talk about the ten gurus. They led an exemplary life that no one in the universe can match.
4) When Babar came to India and committed atrocities on people of India, Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee could not stop himself. Satguru jee went up to Babar and said, “Babar tu Jabar hain”. Siri Guru jee was put in jail for this.
Same way Siri Guru Arjun Dev jee and Siri Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib jee gave shaheedi for the upliftment of Dharam and for the freedom of people. All Gurus spoke against cruel practices of the regimes of that time. What are the Radhasoami gurus doing? Did they speak against the Indian Government when it killed tens of thousands of innocent Sikhs in Punjab? Okay, if they considered Sikh militants wrong, then did they have the audacity to say anything to the Sikh militants? NO!! They always kept quiet fearing that Sikh militants would retaliate and same way fearing retaliation they did not say anything to the Indian government either.
A truly Dharmi person could not have kept quiet amidst so much bloodshed. They should have done something to stop the bloodshed but they did not. They claim to be Satgurus i.e. the greatest masters and kings of this world yet they never utter a word against atrocities and human rights. Is this your concept of a true Guru?
5) All Sikh Gurus were accessible to all sangat poor and rich. On the other hand Radhasoami Gurus are impossible to access beyond few rich and influential followers of RS. A poor person from a pind can never go up to your guru and ask for any favour. Have you personally spoken to your guru and have you ever had time to meet him and have one on one meeting with him? I doubt it.
6) Jaimal Singh came to a small village called Beas and pretended to be a Sikh saint. The village gave him land for building a Gurdwara. The land and Gurdwara was registered under the name of “Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee”. Guess what happened later on? In the fifties, there was a legal battle in which the government stood with Radhasoamis and changed the ownership of Dera Jaimal Singh to the trust that runs Radhasoami Dera. Is this not deceiving? The land that was registered on the name of Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee has been taken away by force and RSSB has done kabzaa on it by illegal means. Is this befitting to a person who claims to be a Satguru i.e. the true Guru? Is this the kind of ideal you have for a true Guru? Answer this question if you can?
7) Your gurus instruct you to not tell anyone your spiritual experience. No one tells anyone their spiritual experiences and this way no one finds out that none of your devotees ever get any spiritual experiences. The faint sounds of bells and other instruments are nothing. How can listening to some instrument give you salvation and how can this sound be the sound of Naam? The sound of Naam is clearly what it is uttered like. As we listen to this sound, it gets purer and purer and louder and louder and clearer and clearer. Have you ever spoken to a Radhasoami who has written his experiences or narrated his experiences?
8) On one hand your guru says that you should not tell your spiritual experiences and on the other hand you have published so many saakhis of Radhasoami followers who have received help from your guru. How come?
9) How come you guys don’t write the names and places of the characters in the saakhees of your followers who have seen miracles of your guru? How come we never see their pictures either? The learned men have determined that these saakhis are just fiction.
It is written in your books that before we buy a clay pot we carefully examine it and therefore we must examine our Guru before adopting him. I urge you to read some books of Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee and other Sikh scholars and mystics. Gurbani is “Dhur kee Baani” and is nothing but truth. It is not same as other poems and baanis of other mahatmas. Have faith in Gurbani and I request you to not waste your janam on serving the wrong guru.
Kulbir Singh
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Author: gurbaksh singh
Date: 03-02-05 12:47
what i wrote in my previous post was not ficition but truth
i tried my best to be polite
but offcourse if you want to know the whole truth here it is
after the officers of the government of india left i went into the room of your guru and said guru ji we should fight these people just like the guru of the sikhs did
his reply was salia marvona aa sikhan de guru ta asli see mai ta aam jai banda aa
naley mai ta khud eh gal jananda aa ke sada nishana kewal te kewal sikhan nu galt raste pouna aaa
naley sanu ke sikhan de guru ta inaha de pukar te delhi jake sis dee aei see
jadon ke oh ina de dharam vich ukeen nahi karde see eh aa asli guru wali gal
then i took leave from him and the rest you know
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Author: Maj. Gen . Waris Ahmed
Date: 03-02-05 17:01
I want to Give you some very Important Information Regarding Radha Soamis.
First of all I want to Inform Mr. Gurbax Singh I was there when Indian Army's Commander in Chief starts Abusing Radha Soami's Satguru.
I was Looking at you while Gen. Gupta was Talking to Him. The Anger on Ur Face & the Humiliation.....but I know at that time you were Helpless...
I have nothing to do with your Interest coz I know "Allah is the most Powerfull".
but the reallity was that Radha Soami's Satguru was also Helpless....Radha Soamis are Lucky they didnt Lose their Satguru at that Time.
I dont know why Indian Public so Dumb. Everybody knows in India Meat, Alcohol And Smoke is counted as Bad things and in India Esp. in Punjab the Farmars Drink Wine & they Eat Meat but they dont smoke ( but some of Hindus smokes in Punjab) so Esp. in Punjabi Womens are so Superstisious they Belive in Baba System & they Like such People who Talk about Bad Results of ALcolism Etc. .......but those people dont even think about the Hats ( Nehroo Style) which they Wear.......why they wear those Hats.....
Its just to Adultrate Sikhism. I am not Sikh but I respect Sikh Faith we have stronge Friendships with Sikhs but Indian Govt. is Direct Supporting Radhas.
In Indian History what Radhas Did.
Gurbax Singh you are Lucky that u changed yourself.
Indian Govt. is Supporting :-
1. R.S.S.
2. Rahda Soamis
3. Nirankaris
4. AshuTosh
5. Paniyara
6. Kukaa Mat
I just feel its Important to informe you about this Incident.
RABB RAKHA
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Author: Amardeep
Date: 03-04-05 10:04
Kulbir Singh,
You're parallel is flawed, there are many "gursikhs" I personally know who are adept in gurbani and never miss their nitnem and even do parchar in Gurdwaras together with immense levels of Simran and Seva, yet amongst these very people, I have seen terrible crimes such as Narimaar and Kurimaar -cardinal sins indeed, and amongst those most unforgiven in the Panth, more recently cases of abuse of young boys has surfaced.
Whilst I have my reservations about Radho Soamis of today and their doctrines, Justin is quite correct in stating that taking a poor example of a RS man does not allow for accurate comparison or assessment of their doctrines.
Justin, one question I do have for you and other RS brothers/sisters here, particularly those from Sikh households or families, in your personal opinions/choices, what is there in the RS doctrine/way of life which you feel is not present in the Maryada of Guru Gobind Singh's Khalsa?
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Author: RK
Date: 03-04-05 13:19
>>>You're parallel is flawed, there are many "gursikhs" I personally know who are adept in gurbani and never miss their nitnem and even do parchar in Gurdwaras together with immense levels of Simran and Seva, yet amongst these very people, I have seen terrible crimes such as Narimaar and Kurimaar -cardinal sins indeed, and amongst those most unforgiven in the Panth, more recently cases of abuse of young boys has surfaced<<<
When a person has done a major gulti, especially a bajjar kurehit, then all the amount of seva they do does not get stored up but leaks through because of the "hole" that has been created due to their mistake. So the statement still holds true because these people you mention, all their bhagti is getting wasted because of their rehitlessness instead of being stored in their spiritual bank account.
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Author: GurChela
Date: 03-08-05 07:00
To Kulbir Singh
SABH TEY VADDA SATGUR NANAK, JIN, KAL RAAKHI MERI||
(Greatest of all is Satguru Nanak who has kept my honour in this dark age of Kalyug).
......Totally Wrong explanation
It's the Satgur, who is Vadda..........Not Nanak Vadda.
And
Question:
1. What's the Real meaning of Wahguru?
2. What is Shabad?
3. What kind of sounds "your" mind can create?
It seems like you were intiated by the Radhasoami Guru, or you stole this info from a Satsangi?
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Author: Baldeep Singh
Date: 03-13-05 14:13
Vaheguroooo Ji Ka Khalsaaah, Vahegurooo Ji Ka Fateeeh!
Gurchelaji,
Why should Bhai Kulbir Singhji answer your three measly questions when you cant even answer his six mammoth-based questions. Why are you, Amardeep and Justin beating around the bush?
Or is it that you cant answer his questions? Hmmmmm..... ;@)
Vaheguroooo Ji Ka Khalsaaah, Vahegurooo Ji Ka Fateeeh!
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Author: Balji Kaur Toor
Date: 03-13-05 21:08
Thanks we are learning a lot keep up both of you
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Author: J Singh
Date: 03-13-05 23:01
Soon the radhaswami matt will die.
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Author: ..........
Date: 03-14-05 02:04
i do not see it dieing out for a long time. People are loosing the plot everywhere, first they loose their punjabiat heritage and values which are thousand of year old.
Holding down sikhi means grow your kes, keeping rehat, taking amrit, panj kakars and maintaining in pristine glory of khalsa rehit and standards set by Satguru Gobind Singh Ji .
In the 80s 90s people tried this partly or fully fully one became amritdhari or inclined towards its goal.
The partly one (majority) became deluded by illusiory energy. they ran hither and thither because they lost their cultural identity (punjabiat through moving outside and now multicorps taken over punjab setting a new scene). They further gave in to the kaal (time change lapse) changing conditions new challenge. Now keeping kes is out of the question for these people
rehat? no that will make you mental what are you talking about? no need to go gurdwara god inside your heart.
So spirituality aspect of sikhi departed from these soul and cultural aspect died out. Now confused as hell they are part western adopt easy lax rehits no need to grow hair or other restriction.
and other majority on this path out of sikhi towards mind who may or may not b radaswami have adopted caste culture more than religion because loosing their culture and idenityt. This is why castism is more rife than ever before its much easier to practice outright than rleigion. So we have two big problems dehdaris and castists prevent ekta.
So until our veers and bhens actually get attarcted back to the magnet of sikhi and its real essence gurbani and naam they will remain lost and follow various pathways and cultures as easy substitutes.
If any such feel their pathway is over above what Guru Ji has given then please explain?
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Author: ..........
Date: 03-14-05 02:05
preventing ekta as in punjabi society needs to be guided under sikhi matt and not any other, till we are one united we cannot achieve much. So we must live sikhi and help it spread.
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Author: sarjitsinghkhalsa
Date: 03-14-05 11:26
well done for giving good news about these indian agents
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Author: Baldeep Singh
Date: 03-15-05 03:10
As we are talking about RS's, I gave a lift to a Hindoo Bibi a month or so ago, she is an attendee of the so called Satsang of RS. She mentioned that the reason why RS dont do Guru Ka Langar is because... it brings ego (Hankar!), this is because an individual might start to think I have done more sewa than the next person therefore I am better than them.
Funny thing is that these RS state that they believe in Satguru Nanak Sahibji and jagat guru sahibs message and denounce the very instituations and doctrines initiated by the Satgurus. Obviously, they cant grab the very concept of Gurus Sahibs doctrines instead they plagiarise what suits them. In addition to this their very own so called Guru is a donkey pretending to be lion.
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Author: harjindersingh
Date: 02-27-06 00:06
how can one open his dasam dwar with his own efforts?
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Author: DS
Date: 02-27-06 04:25
Author: sarjitsinghkhalsa
Date: 03-16-05 11:04
radhasomis govements agents
********
and your proof is...?
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Author: kattar sikh
Date: 02-27-06 04:53
The worst thing I find about radha soamis is that they have taken 2 KEY WORDS from Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj.Those words are NAAM and GURU.They have a human guru who speaks some word in the ear of his disciple.
Then the radha soamis use gurbani to illustrate the importance of Naam and Guru.
How can radha soamis expect sikhs to be quiet when they are hitting sikhs at their conscience?
At present sikhs have no Miri.Everyone is trying to destroy sikhs.When sikhs ruled,they treated everyone as brothers and now the same people are either destroying sikhi or watching sikhi getting destroyed.
If I ever get some seva from guru and if I ever get into some position of power(spiritually or wordly or both)I am not going to forgive these radha soamis,nirankaris,ashutosh's etc.
These people do deserve mercy but before they appeal for mercy,they have to face JUSTICE.
BOLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO NIHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAL
SAT SRI AKAL
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Author: seeker
Date: 03-31-06 05:21
I have gone through the discussion thread and find myself amazed at the level of intolerence that is floating around. I think a genuine seeker instead of indulging in meaningless debates, would try to introspect and discover the meaning of god within.
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Author: sanjo
Date: 03-31-06 09:34
its very hard to do that without a guru, n even then u need a satguru. all knowledge and spirituality comes at the grace of waheguru. u need to earn that grace, take a look at the facts, and follow the satguru sri guru granth sahib and then we can truely look within ourselves for god. who here would know to look within for god if it wasnt for sri guru granth sahib saying so?
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Author: jugroop singh
Date: 04-02-06 17:08
VahiGuruJiKaKhalsa,VahiGuruJiKiFateh!
could the RS supporters explain why Sree Guru Nanak Sahib Jee does not name His 'human SatGuru' throughout Gurbani...
because everyone needs a 'human SatGuru' right...?
VahiGuruJiKaKhalsa,VahiGuruJiKiFateh!
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Author: Kuldip
Date: 04-11-06 04:33
Piario Gursikhs, don't be so intolerant.
But one thing is this, RS should, can and do freely practice their faith but I beleive what the Singhs and Singhnis are requesting is the following:
If you're RS, please don't classify yourselves as Sikhs - the reason being "Sab Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai, Guru Maneo Granth" which means, All Sikhs have been given the order to believe in the Granth as their Guru. The Ardas does not say "Sab Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai, Guru Maneo Maharaj Gurinder Singh Ji"
Stop wearing a Kara, this is a Sikhi identifier, you are NOT sikhs (see above)
Don't display Khandas in your cars etc or wear Khanda chains - in other words, don't use Sikhi symbols.
Don't preach to Sikhs about RS or Maharaji or Haines Park seva (UK) or Beas etc etc, please live and let live.
Don't thrust books such as "Why A Book Can't be your Guru" in my face either.
Thank you for your time.
Gurfateh!
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Author: born_khadkuuuuu
Date: 04-11-06 09:55
I dont understand 1 thing.If Mr Gurinder is the Satguru,then he should not be sleeping and should be preaching 24 hours.This will also make his RS followers sure that he is a highly spiritual soul.Sleep is a form of agiaanta as when one has realized the Swasaroop(trueself) which is permanent,immortal then one doesnt need sleep.The body or the eyes can feel tired but then that doesnt mean that one should sleep,one can just rest.
In fact I feel if there is some real sant in the sikh panth today,he should have overcome his sleep and he can help in exposing Mr.Gurinder Dhillon.
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Author: satlok singh
Date: 05-06-06 01:27
Dear mr kulbir and all gurdwara people
first of all mr kulbir you had done a wrong thing by disclosing the great naam daan words, this words are for mukti not for playing games on net .
i strongly belive that kaal is moving the world as it is kalyug , you are the man on which kaal is totaly devoted . on reading your letters i got the idea that you are good parrot of gurbaani but you dont know the simple thing reading the book dont make you clear this kaal chakkar you have to find one guru and take naam dan as this is the procedure for clearing the death and live game in kalyug
chanting.............................
so take my words on your heart dont take them on your mind which is totaly controlled by your kaal. life is very short and we got this chance after so many births in different junes dont waste your life in protecting khalsa .
I have seen thousands of amritdhaari bhais doing there regular duty after then they drink and eat non vegs . I am not against khalsaa aur guru granth sahab but know one thing gurudwara is the school to get admission in but the exam you only give when you do your practice in sadhana.
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Author: sanjo
Date: 06-19-06 07:57
there is no satguru after guru granth sahib ji, guru granth sahib jis is the eternal satguru, thats why guru gobind singh ji bestowed power on the panj pyareh. the panj can instill naam in the abhlakee in maharajs hazoori. anywhere anytime u can arrange a amrit sanchar and become gursikh. guru ji will always be ready to take you in to his refuge.
for cults with living "satgurus" your guru is never around 24/7, you may have to wait many years till ur satguru visits your area to gift you with naam. this is not the correct way. guru maharaj gve panj pyareh authority to bestow amrit on people so sikhi could spread quickly, and also guru granth sahib is always present.
daas has a radhaswami aunty, who has done "bhajan" for 18 years, but still feels the need to go to certain other amritdhari babeh to seek help for petty problems.
if a khalsa done naam abhyaas for 18 years with shardha they would have full faith in sri guru granth sahib ji and would knw naam is the answer to all problems. this rs naam must be weak compared to the naam and amrit guru gobind singh has bestowed on us.
daas's radhaswami uncle started following their "satguru" when he miraculously gave up drinking. though it must be noted my aunty n uncle did apparently used to go gurdwara n do seva.
people do things like paaht and seva and give daswand n all of a sudden the true satguru sri guru grnath sahib does kirpa and improves their life, but just as a coincidence they go n meet a faker sant or "guru", and believe that what this faker has done is what worked. they do not realise the real guru has done kirpa. people look for the easy way out n like to believe that a man can read some mantra or do some jadhu or sumink n sort everything out. they do not like the path of truth which is do simran, paaht and ardas, along with seva and daswand. if anyone does these things then it is only a matter of time before guru maharaj bestows some kirpa.
bhull chukk maaf
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Author: Kulbir Singh
Date: 06-19-06 09:57
Satlok Singh,
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i strongly belive that kaal is moving the world as it is kalyug , you are the man on which kaal is totaly devoted . on reading your letters i got the idea that you are good parrot of gurbaani but you dont know the simple thing reading the book dont make you clear this kaal chakkar you have to find one guru and take naam dan as this is the procedure for clearing the death and live game in kalyug
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You above written remarks about me are quite amusing. It is your spiritual blindness that you consider "Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee" merely a book. Your besharam Radhasoami writers (e.g. Puri) have written this time after time that "a book can never be Guru".
As for finding a Guru, I have found The Guru i.e. the only Guru i.e. Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj. Siri Guru jee's jyot currently resides in Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee and his Panth Khalsa. Ones who are spiritually bankrupt cannot fathom this truth. What can they do. They don't have the bhaags.
Kulbir Singh
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Author: anonymous
Date: 06-20-06 09:37
kulbir,
why do you feel the need to discuss Radha Soami's
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Author: Kulbir Singh
Date: 06-20-06 09:51
Anonymous, I felt the need to discuss RS because you have been discussing Sikhi for over a century now. You have had the audacity to call Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee "a book" and you have been giving qiving quotes in your books about how Granths and Pothis cannot be the Guru and cannot save us. All these are attacks on Sikhi.
The Radhasoamis based in Agra are fine as far as we are concerned. They don't talk about Sikhi and don't quote from Gurbani. We have no qualms with them but RS Beas has been misleading bholay-bhaalay Sikhs for a long time and it is well within our rights to counter your negative parchaar.
Please don't take it personal. We are just discussing ideology here.
Kulbir Singh
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Author: satnam
Date: 06-20-06 12:21
PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN RADHASWAMI OR NARAKDHARIS, ARE INNOCENT PEOPLE WHO WANT TO BE SPIRTUAL BUT DONT HAVE ENOUGH (PUNN) GOOD KARAM THAT THEY CAN BECOME GURSIKHS.
SO LEAVE THEM ALONE, AFTER THEY ATTAIN TONS OF GOOD (PUNN) KARAMS, THEY WILL GET POORAN GURU WHICH IS GURU GRANTH SAHIB JEE. FOR THEM IT CAN TAKE SEVERAL JANAM OR 84 LAKH CIRCLE TO BECOME GURSIKHS.
KULBIR SINGH JEE I AM VERY IMPRESSED BY YOUR GURMAT VICHARS. YOU KNOW THAT EVERYBODY CANNOT DRINK AMRIT, BECAUSE AMRIT IS FOR VERY RARE PEOPLE. SHARAB(LIQUOR) IS MADE FOR DEVIL BUDHI PEOPLE (MANMUKHS).
ALL THE GURSIKHS PRESENT IN THIS WORLD HAVE SOME CONNECTION WITH GURU SAHIB FROM MANY MANY JANAMS, SO EVERY BODY CANNOT MAKE CONNECTION WITH GURU SAHIB.
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Author: Sardar
Date: 06-20-06 14:43
The story behind the RadaSwami "faith" is a love story of two couples. The woman's name was Rada. "Swami" means a spiritual person. So the two words combined means the Saint of Rada. These people have nothing to do Sikhism and they do not belong Sikh Religion. People may claim that Radaswamis, Narakdharis, Naamdharis, Neeldharis, etc. are not our "Sikh" sisters and brothers but as a matter of fact, they do not belong to Sikhism at all. They worship a person.
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Author: smith
Date: 06-20-06 16:42
Kulbir,
may i ask where you get all of your information from about RS?
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Author: sanjsingh
Date: 06-22-06 09:18
kulbir, every 1 always talks about my religion my this my that but in reality no human being ever had a choice of what religion they was born in, if any1 said before their birth "oh i want to be a sikh,hindu or a muslim when i'm born" is lying. In reality every soul either in humans or in animals is apart of the same being which is god. When a drop merges into the ocean the drop becomes the ocean and the ocean becomes the drop. God did not create any religion, if a father has 4 children he would love them all the same he would never favour 1 child more then the others because all are his children and all are equal to him. The father won't care if 1 child is black 1 white 1 fat or thin and so on he loves them all no matter what. Buddists say "after buddah there can not be another buddah" christains say "jesus was the only son of god" muslims "mohammed was the only messenger" jews "moses was the only saint" hindus "krishna was the only highest incarnation and finally sikhs "after guru gobhind singh ji no other saint can give out the teachings". God proved the buddists wrong by the coming of moses then he proved the jews wrong by the coming of jesus and so on. Humans in my opinion learn better from other humans i respect ur view greatly but god resides within the human body if any 1 ever found god or will find god in the future it will be in the human body. thanks 4 reading
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Author: girl
Date: 06-22-06 10:10
Valid point Sanjsingh
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Author: Kulbir Singh
Date: 06-23-06 05:05
Smith,
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Kulbir,
may i ask where you get all of your information from about RS?
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Well, there has not been one source of my information about RS. I have read many RS books and have spoken to a lot of “satsangis” (RS Beas members). At times I have debated with them.
Is there anything in particular you want to know or ask? Please go ahead if you have a question or a query.
Kulbir Singh
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Author: Kulbir Singh
Date: 06-23-06 05:18
Sanjsingh,
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God did not create any religion,
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How do you know that God has not created any religion? Are you God’s right-hand man? You say that God created no religion but baani makes it clear that Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj was sent to this world by God himself:
suxI pukwr dwqwr pRB gur nwnk jg mwihM pTwXw]
sunee pukaar dhaathaar prabh gur naanak jag maahi(n) pat(h)aayaa||
The benefactor Lord listened to the cries (of humanity) and sent Guru Nanak to this world.
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if a father has 4 children he would love them all the same he would never favour 1 child more then the others because all are his children and all are equal to him. The father won't care if 1 child is black 1 white 1 fat or thin and so on he loves them all no matter what.
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If a father has 4 children and 3 of them are thugs and dacoits, and one of them is totally submitted to his father and obeys him, won’t the father have special regard and place for his good child? The child who obeys his father wins his father’s heart. In case the father is a king, he would choose his best son as his successor.
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Buddists say "after buddah there can not be another buddah"
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Get your facts right. Buddhists don’t say that and as the matter of fact they say quite the opposite. Anyway this is not the subject of this thread.
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christains say "jesus was the only son of god" muslims "mohammed was the only messenger" jews "moses was the only saint" hindus "krishna was the only highest incarnation and finally sikhs "after guru gobhind singh ji no other saint can give out the teachings".
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No we are not saying that no one can offer teachings after Siri Guru Gobind Singh jee Maharaaj. What we are saying is that at a given time there cannot be two Satgurus. At the time of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj, only Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee was the Satguru. Same way at this time Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee is the Satguru and no one else can be called the Satguru. There are saints even today but these saints don’t try to claim that they are Satgurus. They stay humble and they stay dust of Sangat’s feet. True Gursikhs are true Saints.
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God proved the buddists wrong by the coming of moses then he proved the jews wrong by the coming of jesus and so on.
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Don’t get Eastern and Semitic religions all mixed up. The arrival of Moses did not prove the Buddhist wrong. Man, you are so badly brainwashed by the Radhasoami books.
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Humans in my opinion learn better from other humans i respect ur view greatly but god resides within the human body if any 1 ever found god or will find god in the future it will be in the human body. thanks 4 reading
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Over here I have to agree with you. God resides in everyone and God can be found only from within the body. We have to mediated on the true Naam and we can find God right within this body then.
Kulbir Singh
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Author: sanj singh
Date: 06-23-06 10:23
Kulbir,
First of all im not god's right hand man, and yes your right it does say in the banni that Siri Guru Nanank Dev Ji was sent into this world by god himself but my point is this that the main fundemental principals in all religions are the same for e.g. The bible say's Jesus was sent by god, in the quran Mohammed was sent by god and the same with the rest of the major religions of the world.
Your also right about the father and his children if a 1 child obeys the father more then the rest he will win his fathers heart. But how does the child win his fathers heart? Not by slagging the rest of his children off but by love, and by doing what the father wants him to do. What does the father want is children to do? To do bakti on his name. What is bakti? It's not reading,writing,bathing in holy waters and speaking ill of others who repeat his name or don't. That's not for use to judge but we should be more concerned about ourselves, if any1 has read about the father but not seen or heard the father his interpretaion of the father can also be wrong cos he has second hand knoledge of how others have seen and heard the father and not first hand knowlede.
You said there can only be 1 satguru at only 1 time, so your saying Kabir sahib who was alive at the same time as Guru Nanak dev ji was not a satguru, then why are his teachings and poems in the Siri Guru Granth Sahib? The Banni has the teachings of many other mystic's aswell if eveything is correct in the banni which it is then that means aswell as our 10 Guru's other mystic's can also be right.
When i make a desicion about something i do all my research first i don't get led astray by any1 and for your record nobody has brainwashed me mate, iv'e got my eyes wide open. I'm not saying people don't get brainwashed cos they probably do but me i don't think so. Aswel as Radhasoami books i have read books from other mystics, paths and religions and so on. If some1 writes or speaks the truth about something people don't like it Guru Nanak Rejected the Vevdas and opposed the rituals and caste system of the hindu religion and the brahmins didn't like it. Nowadays if some1 points out a mistake of a religion then they don't like it too. But in my opinion it's best to say nothing about others and just concentrate on urself.
I know i'm right about god being in the human body, cos Siri Guru Nanank dev ji said "It's not these eyes that see the lord, it's not these ears that hear the lord it's the eyes and ears of the soul which see and hear him". If every1 thinks the lord is inside of man then why don't they look inside of man, if u have lost a key inside ur house and are looking for it outside u will get tired and not find the key, but if u look inside the right place u will find the key and open the door. All mystic's, saint's and saga's only come into the world to show u where to find the key and open the door, i think the real guru is shabad but it gets manifested as humans in order to teach humans. If a master comes into the world to make deciples he is not a master, cos masters only come into the world to make others masters like them. What is a master? Some1 who has full control and have masterd their own mind. they just teach u how to do it yourself even a great singer would have an ustad.
Sanj Singh
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Author: satnam
Date: 06-23-06 11:42
Dear Sanj Singh Je
"You said there can only be 1 satguru at only 1 time, so your saying Kabir sahib who was alive at the same time as Guru Nanak dev ji was not a satguru, then why are his teachings and poems in the Siri Guru Granth Sahib? The Banni has the teachings of many other mystic's aswell if eveything is correct in the banni which it is then that means aswell as our 10 Guru's other mystic's can also be right."
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This fact is not right as Kabir sahib came to this world long time before Guru Nanak Dev jee. Also there is always one Dad not multiple so Guru Nanak Dev jee is the only one which is God of everybody . Jesus, Mohammad and all other were mahapurakh of certain powers but not God.
Guru Nanak Dev jee himself as God came to earth because before him God sent many Prophets like Ram avtar, Krishan Avtar, Jesus, Mohamad, Budha, these all were Good but they started telling the world that they are God and could not give exact message of God to people. I mean at certain times made mistakes and Got Haumaey and said they are God.
Where as Guru Nanak Dev jee being himself God, never said he is God and gave all cedit to one God.
There is only one satguru in human body at one time is correct. Guru Angad dev jee Became Satguru only after Guru Nanak Dev jee transferred jot.
I f you read Guru Granth sahib jee, it only tells ustat of one God and praise of one God. It does not tell about personal stories of Gurus and avtars.
Where as in all other Holy Books, it tells about personal stories of their prophets more than ustat(Praise) of one God .
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Author: smith
Date: 06-23-06 11:47
Kulbir singh,
I have to admire your vast knowledge about RS considering you're strictly a sikh. You even stated the naam, which most satsangi's don't know. I am not a radha soami but i know some personally and have read plenty of books and so have a good amount of knowledge about them and i myself have debated with them. Your in no particular threat from radha soami's.
From what i know they do not attack sikhism or any other religion, and it in fact is not a religion but a path, and with the exception of a minority, they do not preach or lure anybody onto this path. This is not their aim. it is easy to question a person's belief because belief is based on having faith and not on facts. It is easy to target a Radha Soami because they are instructed and advised by a living master whereas, for example, a sikh believes in the SGGS as their guru, which, as such can not be directly questioned, but relies on having faith, so really your guru cannot be criticised.
You say that they have been discussing sikhism for over a century now but i have not heard any of these discussions, they have nothing to do with sikhism as some others on this forum have said.
You stated that you honestly believe that they are mislead and wasting their hardwork but to be fair any person could easily say the same to you so i don't understand what you gain from saying such things though you are entitled to your opinion.
Also, I have not so far read many replies from radha soami's only followers of sikhism so it is not really a fair debate.
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Author: sanj singh
Date: 06-23-06 14:59
Satnam
Kabir Sahib and Guru Nanak were alive at the same time, Kabir sahib was much older then the great Guru Nanak and they even met. So i'm sorry to say but u need to get some facts right. This is nothing new it's a well known historical fact, so i recommend u do some research on this particular issue.
I agree with u on this point about not every mystic or a saint has reached the highest power Akal Purish. There has been and always will be incarnations of the lower powers pretending to be god and telling u there path or religion is right, so u have to have a broad view point and not be narrow minded when looking into a subject about god.
I myself have taken namm dhan from baba gurinder singh of RRSB, but before i did i done a hell of a lot of research to make sure i am comfortable with the teachings. Every1 who say's RSSB are anti sikh or anti this and that are wrong, u should never judge a book by it's cover. Before i got initiated i read alot of RS and none RS books, i researched the agra and other branches of RS and how it started and so on i even checked all the criticism on the internet in actual fact the secretary at my local RS centre even told me to check everything about RS on the net and told me that this is not a religion he said u are a sikh and are gona remain a sikh and tells the same to other ppl of different religions. He even said that i am never to disrespect the Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or any other religion or holy books he made sure i was not forced by any1 and it was my own decision as i had just reached the namm dhan age and was quite young.
Regarding Kulbir naming the name dhan names to every1 like it's a joke i don't agree with that at all. But i dont mind at all let me narrate a story,
Once a mystic used to live in the south of india he had a few followers in the north where a raja also used to stay. The mystic's fame grew big and the raja asked 1 of his followers what was it that this mystic tells u, the follower told him the mantra (names) the saint gives so the raja went to see the saint all the way down south when he saw him the saint never spoke to him all he gave him was his mantra (holy names) the raja was furious and abused the saint and said "i came all the way from the north to see u and u told me something i already know" the saint said "there is a difference when i say it or some1 else say's it". The raja went back to to his palace, after a few months the saint went to see the raja at his palace when he got there, guards were standing infront of the raja the saint told the guards "arrest him, arrest him" the guards looked astonished he repeated it again "arrest him,arrest him" then the raja looking angry said to his guards "arrest him" the guards then arrested the saint the saint finally said to the raja while he was being taken to jail "u and me said the same thing but when u said it there was a difference, u have authority over these guards, i have the authority of a different kind. so when i gave u the mantra it meant something"
sorry if i bored ya abit
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Author: satnam
Date: 06-23-06 15:49
http://www.sufismjournal.org/art/art.html
http://allaboutsikhs.com/bhagats/bhagatkabir.htm
Kulbir Singh Jee , can you tell us about Bhagat Kabir Jee meeting Guru Nanak in his life time, I have not heard of it, may be i am wrong.
I found these two websites telling about Bhagat Kabir jee's life and age.
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Author: satnam
Date: 06-23-06 16:23
Sanj try to recite Guru Nanak's Mantar which is Waheguru, and feel the diffrence. I am very sure you will love it. Give a try. This mantar is also given by Panj Pyaras to Gursikhs.
Recite it loudly so that people near you can benifit also.
Dont Mind Sanj, it is your choice man, you can recite whatever mantar you like.
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Author: satnam
Date: 06-23-06 17:43
If Guru is Poora, then even less simran gives more Fal(result), if Guru Is adhoora, then more simran less fal, It is like you workout for 5 hours daily in gym but still look weak. If Guru is Fraud then both chela and Guru drown together.
If Guru is Poora( Guru Granth Sahib) and sewak listens to hukam and works hard, Poora Guru can make you like him.
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Author: sanj singh
Date: 06-24-06 05:09
satnam,
Your right if a guru is a fraud then he and his followers won't get anywhere, as i said before different incarnations from different powers take birth in order to lead ppl in different ways. By looking at some1 u can't tell what power he has, the mystic's i have studied say there are 5 powers of light and sound that take u to akal purish hence why baba Gurinder Singh and his predecessors gave and give mantra of 5 names, each name representing each stage of 1's own personal path to the lord. Each stage has a different sound and different light. I did also recite waheguru waheguru before i was initiated but u should not recite any mantra loudly when with other ppl around u cos that won't benefit them as much every1 is not the same, some ppl ant interested in speaking or hearing about god. They need to study 4 themselves and see whats right 4 them.
The way i see it is this if a soul trys his best to find god and to get out of this jail u should have that much faith in god that it's up to him to take u to back to ur original home if a child asks 4 roti from a father which father won't give the child roti. If some1 is following the wrong path or teacher then the head of that path is going to be punished by god but that's not 4 us 2 decide what is right or wrong we just have to do ur best cos god knows who are the sincere seekers of the truth, and he will reveal the truth 2 them only. I personally think my teacher (baba gurinder singh) is correct as i have studied and been to other satsangs and read books and seen videos heard tape of other saint's who teach similar things and even give the same type of method to reach the lord.
So 1 has to be very broad minded and research everything and every1 themselves and not listen to others or just think everything on the net is right.
Iv'e been reading alot of debates on the net and they have all been very 1 sided im trying to give another point of view. I think ppl should forget about all these rituals, ceremonies,bathing in waters,tying thread around necks, worshiping idols/stones of past mystic's or going to the land where they were born or went/traveled and fighting about all this nonsense. God is inside of man thats all im ever going to say so research him inside, even if 1 is not initiated into any path or by a mystic then they can repeat any mantra (waheguru, ram ram, allah or what ever) and meditate the surat shabad yoga way and still see light and hear sound (it depends on karma aswell) there are many stages in bhakti, once a saint said that if 1 has not had namm dhan they can reach up to the third eye themselves by hard work and the higher they reach the more power they will have, they by getting this power can do miracles and know the past and future of themselves and others and so on but cos there are many temptations of using this power it is not really advised cos the power is to be kept inside and not used so u can get more power. There are 5 powers in bhakti the first 3 are powers are of the devil so 1 can and it's not impossible to reach up to the 3rd power after that u can't get anywhere cos sachkand is the highest spiritual stage which is in the 5th region. what im trying to say is that the mantra which has 5 powers will benefit u more then any other mantra, the words on it's own don't mean anything it's where there come from.
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Author: Sanjo
Date: 06-24-06 08:39
"sanj singh" u have made some good points and made the arguement more interesting now and posed some questions which is always good. thanks
"baba Gurinder Singh and his predecessors gave and give mantra of 5 names, each name representing each stage of 1's own personal path to the lord."
<<
can u elaborate on each mantra, u say u are given 5 different mantras for different stages, however, surely a mantra is so powerful to take u straight from kulyug to sachkhand. the gurmantar waheguru is so powerfull it can change a manmukh to gurmukh just by japping this one "word".
if wahegurus naam is so powerfull indeed powerfull enough to create the whole universe and sustain it then why are multiple mantars required?
just by japping waheguru once with full concentration and pyaar all a persons sins can be washed away.
"u should not recite any mantra loudly when with other ppl around u cos that won't benefit them as much"
<<
suixAY muiK swlwhx mMdu ]
suniai mukh saalaahan ma(n)dh ||
Listening-even foul-mouthed people praise Him.
suixAY AMDy pwvih rwhu ]
suniai a(n)dhhae paavehi raahu ||
Listening-even the blind find the Path.
suixAY dUK pwp kw nwsu ]11]
suniai dhookh paap kaa naas ||11||
Listening-pain and sin are erased. ||11||
gurbani states how important listening is, even while japping naam u have to listen to it and absorb it within the mind. so listening is very important, so listening to the name of god can only benefit a person.
u said u ahve japped waheguru waheguru before. but have u taken amrit and japped it? hve you had full faith in guru sahibs hukam of taking amrit and receiving naam for panj pyareh. only then can you compare. like das said japping is not only thing one has to do, it is mre important to "digest" the naam using your ears! :
AMimRq nwmu Twkur kw pieE ijs kw sBsu ADwro ]
a(n)mrith naam t(h)aakur kaa paeiou jis kaa sabhas adhhaaro ||
The Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, the Name of our Lord and Master, has been placed upon it as well; it is the Support of all.
jy ko KwvY jy ko BuMcY iqs kw hoie auDwro ]
jae ko khaavai jae ko bhu(n)chai this kaa hoe oudhhaaro ||
One who eats it and enjoys it shall be saved.
"If some1 is following the wrong path or teacher then the head of that path is going to be punished by god"
the teacher will be punished but the followers also, as guru sahib says the followers of fake sants will feed off their "sant" in the next life.
as for the satguru arguement, i dnt think kabir ji was a satguru, kabir ji was a true saint and had a guru himself, but guru nanak dev ji came straight from sachkhand and that joht now resides in sri guru granth sahib ji.
all bhagats in gurbani japped naam but guru nanak dev ji brought waheguru gurmantar and humility to the world from sachkhand and these two things are your passport to sachkhand.
if bhagat kabir ji was a satguru and indeed live around the time of guru nanak dev ji (this issue das is not sure about however) then there would have been no need for guru nanak dev ji to come down from sachkhand and establish sikhi.
there can only be one satguru in a given age, in kalyug it is guru nanak dev ji i.e sri guru granth sahib ji.
das would like to ask what you found appealing in the rs way of life that you did not find in the gursikhi way of life?
sorry for any offense, its good to have smeone fighting rs corner with some intelligence n if you have done alot of research then good on ya,
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Author: Sanj Singh
Date: 06-25-06 12:52
Sanjo,
In reality mantra is not the only thing that is important. RS and past mystic's taught/teach and i believe u have 2 to do 3 things while in meditation that is - simran,bhajan and dhyan. Simran is repeating the mantra, bhajan is trying to listen to the sound, and dhyan is concentrating at the third eye. Guru Nanak said "It's not these eyes that see the lord, it's not these ears that hear the lord, it's the eyes and ears of the soul.
The reason why there is 5 different mantra's is because there are 5 distinct shabads that can be heard while in meditation. Each shabad is a ruler of that particular stage or world, some ppl will think it's pure fiction but what im about to write is not only RS teachers view but according to my knowledge past saint's view also which when looked into with an unbiased mind can be read and by some ppl fully understood.
When this whole universe of universes was created nothing existed not ever Sachkand or the other spiritual worlds that many saint's have talked about. Only the lord existed he was in himself and was himself, what is the lord? a power. That power out of it's will created the true spiritual home sachkand and created souls (which are a tiny drop of that power) to live in, then out of his will again he created the lower powers and lower worlds each power's job is to govern that particular stage or world. So in the end they became 5 spiritual worlds with 5 different powers.
Now there is a difference in each power and world the first 3 worlds and it's rulers (powers) are the negative 1's why? Cos as aswel as spirit they also contain mind, which is a agent of kal the 3 lower rulers replica the higher 1's they even pretend to be the higher 1's when a soul reaches there. Hence there has to be 5 shabads to get u 2 sachkand. But that was a really brief statement cos when looked into in detail 1 can get more and more confused Shiv Dayal Singh the founder (who had a master himself his name was Tulsi Sahib) said "It's best to see 4 urself how this whole creation works cos words are limited, if a maths teacher who has a degree trys to teach a child in school, the child won't understand properly until he starts to practice maths and advancing further himself".
Ur right ONLY BHAKTI can turn a manmukh into a gurmukh and im gone give u a e.g. of my own personal situation. Ive been to India 3 times, the last time i went was bout 4 years ago when i went i bathed in Amritsar and lots of other Gudwara's, went to Hindu mandir's and so on. When i came back to England i felt nothing had changed, my mind is still the same and plays lots of tricks, i'm gone be blatantly honest which some ppl are not now when i used to see a beautiful girl my mind used to react so i learned that all these rituals of the world can't and won't control my mind it has to be something else. Surat Shabad Yoga meditation is what the mystic's did and do so thats what i should do to control my mind.
Ur also right about Listening to shabads and so on cos it does help the mind in creating that atmosphere, sometimes in reading in holy books 1 can't get the full picture though, in gurbani how do u know the listening of shabads as well as outside in this world (tapes, kirtan, satsangs etc..) it's not referring to the shabads inside which Nanak said can be and are heard.
Some RS ppl say that just cos i don't have to keep my hair and stuff thats why i follow RS, which even they have not fully understood everything i know RS ppl who have been initiated for 10/15 years and still don't understand what they have to do. Baba ji himself in a satang where i was there said coming to RS satsangs or seeing me or trying to sit as close to me as possible and stuff is not gona help u, u have to listen and then do what ur told do do, reading and writing a cookery book does not end ur hunger u have to read how 2 cook then cook the food and eat it.
I have to disagree with u saying Kabir not a satguru, we get mixed up in all these so called words like saint, satguru or guru cos in my view if everything in the banni is right, which it is then why include teachings and poems of kabir and lots other saints in it which get read out and sung in kirtan in the gudwara. If only our 10 gurus whom were satguru's/saints gave only the highest teachings then isn't it best to take out the other so called lower saint's writings so that the banni can be the highest record of the teachings ever recorded in man kind cos it will only have the writings of the 10 gurus whom were all the highest, these are also valid questions.
I also don't agree with Guru nanak only being the satguru in kalyug cos as we all know there are 4 main yugs that go 1 after the other they are the golden age, silver age iron age and the dark age (i can't remember the indian words for them) but what's gona happen in the golden age when that comes? will another satguru come or what if we are currently in kalyug then surely this being the darkest age the lord will help more and have more mercy why only send 1 guru for a particular period of time? the ppl who met him and got the teachings face to face were lucky what about every1 else, many amritdharies say he has left the banni to us now but im not convinced i wanna see the lord and not keep reading bout him all my life.
I found RS appealing cos if it's teachings and view point i looked into 3HO, Darshan das, Noormehal, Amrit dhari's, namdharis and agra RS which has changed abit what they teach now and what Shiv Dayal Singh taught is different as he was born in Agra it was only right i checked RS agra out, aswell as that i know god is inside the human-body and RS give a method to see him inside 4 urself. I have seen on many occasions Baba Gurinder Singh and u should judge some1 by listening to what they themselves say rather then what other ppl say and also what RS followers say (some whom don't understand). U have to decide 4 urself there are many RS ppl who have got nam and don't do bhakti same with amrit dhari's hence they have not fully grasped eveything, evey soul is different some soul's are more advance in certain aspects so they can understand better
i studied how the gaddi came to Baba Gurinder Singh aswel, in the end of all this research i found that the past has not got all the answers RS teachings have answered alot of my questions then other paths but Babaji say's all the answers u can't and won't get in this world no matter how much u study it the intellect of the mind can never be satisfied only when the lord is seen inside u will get all the knowledge about everything past, present and future, u will know how the creation was created, how it works and why ur here it's a personal path with no outward shows of any kind, i ant got a bhag or beard so when ppl see me they think i don't know anything about god and religion we try to judge some1 by looking at them. Sikhism for me has gone astray were to busy fighting for land in india, fighting against ppl who use Guru Nanak Quotes, fighting 4 Khalistan being separate and any1 who kills and fights 4 this cause are called saint's that to me does not make sense God say's this ant ur real home it's only for a short period so why bother about this world and it's politics and who's land is who's and my religion this urs that why is there all this fighting in the world? cos of this very reason. I know and have read about the RSS movement and what here trying to do with Sikhism and stuff and how the namdharis say there guru's lineage has come from Guru Gobind Singh Ji and how the Radha soami Gurus (Agra,Beas and the rest) have set up there own dera's and how next guru's say Baba Sawan Singh and other Guru's gave the gaddi to me this and that but at the end of the day u just have to go with what ur heart tells u. My mann tells me forget about all this crap about this world cos u aint even gona be here in 100 years so who cares, let every1 else run after this land and u just do ur own bhakti and take ur place in sachkhand u can't win the world but should try to live the teachings and become a gurmukh urself and forget about all these religions it's fights and there ppl or what they think. RSSB in not a government organization any1 who say's that don't know what there on about im not sure of other organization's and stuff which some probably are but not RRSB, Baba Gurinder Singh don't care about politics of this world, him and his predecessors just give and teach Namm Dhan, RSSB was also appealing because of Baba Gurinder Singh, i like his teachings, his motives, his personality and what his trying to do with the young generation, he even plays football at haynes park which i myself have played with him on may occasions u have to get to know a person before u follow them and lastly if any1 in this day and age trys to give u a gun to kill for your land or rights or religion is dangerous, fighting does not solve anything it just makes it worse, U can't get peace of mind when fighting and i know ppl will say i am weak and brainwashed as kulbir singh said to me but if u think im weak then i agree with u i'm weak, but takes it more of a man to turn the other cheek then to slap some1 back even a dog can bark back. Spirituality is not for the weak but for soldiers who are willing to control there mind and that's the biggest battle 1 will have to fight.
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Author: satnam
Date: 06-26-06 11:23
Sanj Singh Jee, it is not Nindia but just a vichar, Can You give me answer to these questions.
1, Can Any Radhaswami Guru or any other has Guts to go to Mecca and teach a lesson to Qazis and mullahs, as Guru Nanak Did.
2 Can any Rs Guru can go to Baghdad and medina and show mullas lakh agassa agas, lakh patala patal.
3 Can any RS Guru can create or write their own sachi Bani.
4 Can Rs Gurus have guts to teach lesson to Babar like cruel rulers.
5 Can any RS Guru can fight with cruel Kings like Aurangzeb.
Their are millions of other qualities of Guru Nanak and other 9 Gurus which can not be counted,
So is their any other satguru who can be like Guru Nanak.
There are some people in India, if they have a friendship with a sipahi(punjab police soldier or Thanedar) they think they have everything. But these people dont know about power of Prime Minister.
this is just a worldly example.
You only know about RS sect and theory, and you think it is ultimate, but please read about Guru Nanak and Guru Nanak's Bani then you will find out why he is called Satguru.
http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?SourceID=B&pageno=01&Line_No=24
First of all Baba Nanak obtained the gate of the grace (of Lord) and then He underwent and earned the rigorous discipline( of heart and mind).
He fed himself with sand and swallow-wort and made stones his bedding i.e. he enjoyed poverty too.
He offered hid full devotion and then he was fortunate to have proximity with God.
Baba reached the region of truth wherefrom he received Nam, the storehouse of nine treasures and humility.
In his meditation, Baba found the whole earth burning (with the fire of lust and anger).
Without Guru there is utter darkness and he heard the cries of the common men.
To further understand the people, Guru Nanak donned robes in their manner and preached them to be detached (from the pleasure and pain).
Thus he went out to depurate humanity on earth.
http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?SourceID=B&pageno=01&Line_No=22
Can any other Guru has qualities like Guru Nanak.
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Author: Kulbir Singh
Date: 06-27-06 06:48
Sanj Singh,
Sorry for the late response. The following post is in response to your post dated: 06-23-06 10:23
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What does the father want is children to do? To do bakti on his name. What is bakti? It's not reading,writing,bathing in holy waters and speaking ill of others who repeat his name or don't.
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Prema bhagti is about prem (love) with Vaheguru. In his prem you not only do simran and jaap of his Naam but you also read and write his baani as per the following verse of Gurbani:
hir jsu ilKih lwie BwvnI sy hsq pivqw ]
har jas likhehi laae bhaavanee sae hasath pavithaa ||
Those hands which lovingly write the Praises of the Lord are pure.
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You said there can only be 1 satguru at only 1 time, so your saying Kabir sahib who was alive at the same time as Guru Nanak dev ji was not a satguru, then why are his teachings and poems in the Siri Guru Granth Sahib? The Banni has the teachings of many other mystic's aswell if eveything is correct in the banni which it is then that means aswell as our 10 Guru's other mystic's can also be right.
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Guru is always the bhagat of Vaheguru but all bhagats are not Gurus. Bhagat Kabir jee was a bhagat of greatest calibre but still he was not a Satguru. Satguru is Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaj. This is evident from the baani of Siri Guru Granth Sahih jee. In Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee all Satgurus are addressed as “Mahalla” whereas all bhagats including Bhagat Kabir jee is addressed as “Bhagat”. If Bhagat jee had been Satguru, he would have been called a “Mahalla”.
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i think the real guru is shabad but it gets manifested as humans in order to teach humans.
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RS insists so much on Dehdhari Guru (human guru) and reject that Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee can be Guru. You above here write that Guru is shabad and it gets manifested as humans. Why can’t the shabad stay shabad and be the Guru as in the case of Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee? Siri Guru Gobind Singh jee Maharaaj gave guruship gaddi to Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee. At a given time there can only be one Satguru. Then how can the RS gurus be real Gurus?
Kulbir Singh
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Author: Kulbir Singh
Date: 06-27-06 06:56
Smith,
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You say that they have been discussing sikhism for over a century now but i have not heard any of these discussions, they have nothing to do with sikhism as some others on this forum have said.
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Judging from your name it seems like you are from West. This is why you don’t know the ground realities in Punjab where the RS Beas Dera is situated. You very well know that RS has no belief in not cutting hair. According to them keeping kesh (hair) or cutting hair is same as far as spirituality is concerned. Their present day guru – Gurinder Dhillon used to cut hair but as soon as he became RS guru, he stopped cutting hair, grew beard and starting wearing a turban. From outside he looks exactly like a Sikh saint. All this was done to lure the innocent and gullible Sikhs into their fold.
To make matters worse, they use Gurbani i.e. Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee’s writings to preach their religion. For this reasons, Sikhs oppose them. If they were not doing the above stated, Sikhs won’t worry about them.
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Also, I have not so far read many replies from radha soami's only followers of sikhism so it is not really a fair debate.
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Well, no one has stopped them from posting. Let them post. Let it be a fair debate. To this date, they have not responded to the questions I posed to them in this thread.
Kulbir Singh
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Author: Kulbir Singh
Date: 06-27-06 07:11
Sanj Singh,
This is in response to your post on 06-23-06 14:59,
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Kabir Sahib and Guru Nanak were alive at the same time, Kabir sahib was much older then the great Guru Nanak and they even met. So i'm sorry to say but u need to get some facts right. This is nothing new it's a well known historical fact, so i recommend u do some research on this particular issue.
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I totally agree with you Sanjsingh that Bhagat Kabir jee and Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee met and lived at the same time. Bhagat Kabir who used to do Sargun Puja i.e. worship the Avtars of Vishnu became a Nirgun Bhagat after meeting Siri Guru jee.
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I myself have taken namm dhan from baba gurinder singh of RRSB, but before i did i done a hell of a lot of research to make sure i am comfortable with the teachings.
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You say you did research. Did you research Sikhi? What books about Sikhi did you read? How do you know that what you are being offered at RS is the truth?
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internet in actual fact the secretary at my local RS centre even told me to check everything about RS on the net and told me that this is not a religion he said u are a sikh and are gona remain a sikh and tells the same to other ppl of different religions.
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Your local secretary misled you when he told you that you will stay a Sikh even after becoming RS. What a lie he spoke to you. The moment you bring your faith on anyone other than our 10 Guru Sahiban and Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee, you cease to be a Sikhi.
Since you have brought you belief on Gurinder Dhillon, you are no longer a Sikh. Even our Super Moderate Fazil Dost Sardar Harcharan Singh jee will agree with me here (I really hope so).
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Regarding Kulbir naming the name dhan names to every1 like it's a joke i don't agree with that at all.
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RS has stolen names from here and there to form their own mantra. This mantra does not even flow when you japp it. Jyot Naranjan is the copy of Alakh Naranjan that Yogi Naths used to say out. Sohang is also a known name in sects in India. Satnam and Nirankar have been taken from Gurbani. Rarankar, I don’t even know what it means. It seems like a meaningless word to me. In any case, this is your Varnatmak Naam and you don’t put too much emphasis on it.
You guys really go after Dhunatmak Naam which is even worse than your Varnatmak Naam. At least Varnatmak Naam qualifies to be a Kirtam Naam whereas the Dhunatmak Naam is a mere imagination. RS people try to hear certain sounds and their mind creates those sounds for them. They try to picture their guru in front of them and soon the mind creates that picture for them in their mind. It is nothing more than Lucid Dreaming.
Thanks for the story buddy.
Kulbir Singh
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Author: Kulbir Singh
Date: 06-27-06 08:10
Sanj Singh,
In response to your post on: 06-24-06 05:09
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the mystic's i have studied say there are 5 powers of light and sound that take u to akal purish hence why baba Gurinder Singh and his predecessors gave and give mantra of 5 names, each name representing each stage of 1's own personal path to the lord. Each stage has a different sound and different light.
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Where in Gurbani does it say that there are 5 powers of light and sound or that there are five stages before meeting Vaheguru? Surely, there are 5 Khands i.e. Dharam Khand, Gyan Khand, Sharam Khand, Karam Khand and Sach Khand but there is no mention that these khands are ruled and created by some forces other than Vaheguru himself. Akal Purakh himself created all these khands and he alone is in control in all khands. This Gorakhdhanda of one Lord for each stage or realm is not according to Gurmat and Gurmat does not approve of this. It is actually blasphemous to suggest that anyone other than Akal Purakh is in control of lower regions.
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I did also recite waheguru waheguru before i was initiated
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If you had recited the above stated mantra after initiation (from Punj Pyaray) you would have never looked towards any other path.
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So 1 has to be very broad minded and research everything and every1 themselves and not listen to others or just think everything on the net is right.
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You also need to be broadminded and read some real material on Sikhi.
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Iv'e been reading alot of debates on the net and they have all been very 1 sided im trying to give another point of view. I think ppl should forget about all these rituals, ceremonies,bathing in waters,tying thread around necks, worshiping idols/stones of past mystic's or going to the land where they were born or went/traveled and fighting about all this nonsense.
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In some of your other posts you very passionately suggested that we should respect all religions or that we should have a broad mind but now you are severely criticising the rituals of Hindu religion.
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There are 5 powers in bhakti the first 3 are powers are of the devil so 1 can and it's not impossible to reach up to the 3rd power after that u can't get anywhere cos sachkand is the highest spiritual stage which is in the 5th region. what im trying to say is that the mantra which has 5 powers will benefit u more then any other mantra, the words on it's own don't mean anything it's where there come from.
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Who coined the term “Sach Khand”? Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee, right? Since Siri Guru jee told the world about the 5 stages and the fifth level, he himself must have reached there. How come he did not give the Naam of 5 shabads? Why did he give the Naam of one shabad only? This shows that the RS Gorakhdhanda of 5 Naams is nothing but Gorakhdhanda.
Where does Gurbani say that the three levels are controlled by the Devil and two by Vaheguru? The mention of 5 levels first came in Gurbani but Gurbani does not mention any 5 lords of 5 regions. Sanjsingh, it seems from your posts that you were born in a Sikh family. It is pretty unfortunate that you have lost your opportunity by denying the protection and sharan of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee. Look at the following Pankiti:
“Siri Guru Raaj Abichal Attal, Aad Purakh Furmaio||”
(The kingdom of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee is eternal; so has been declared by Akal Purakh).
The whole world belongs to Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee. Don’t lose his sharan. Come to Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee and give up false or incomplete gurus. Rest is up to you.
Kulbir Singh
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Author: Kulbir Singh
Date: 06-27-06 09:41
Sanjsingh,
This is in response to your post on: 06-25-06 12:52
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In reality mantra is not the only thing that is important. RS and past mystic's taught/teach and i believe u have 2 to do 3 things while in meditation that is - simran,bhajan and dhyan. Simran is repeating the mantra, bhajan is trying to listen to the sound, and dhyan is concentrating at the third eye. Guru Nanak said "It's not these eyes that see the lord, it's not these ears that hear the lord, it's the eyes and ears of the soul.
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First of all, the quote from Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee’s baani is not relevant here.
Secondly no where in Gurbani your method of Simran, Bhajan and Dhyaan has been mentioned. No where in Gurbani it says that you should do your dhyan on the third eye. Gurbani clearly says that Dhyaan is obtained when you meditate on the true Naam as follows:
Suniai laagai sehaj dhyaan||
(By listening to the true Naam, dhyaan is obtained effortlessly).
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The reason why there is 5 different mantra's is because there are 5 distinct shabads that can be heard while in meditation. Each shabad is a ruler of that particular stage or world, some ppl will think it's pure fiction but what im about to write is not only RS teachers view but according to my knowledge past saint's view also which when looked into with an unbiased mind can be read and by some ppl fully understood.
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The sounds that RS hear in meditation are the sound created by their mind. These are not shabads of any realm. RS devotee sits in a squat way, place their hands on their eyes and ears and try to listen first to the sound of a Ghanta (bell). Before sitting in this Aalti Paalti Aasan (position) they repeat their Varnatmak Naam for sometime. Then they try to listen to these sounds. First of all when you place hands on the your ears, you can hear the sounds of your body. They get excited by this. Then when your mind wants to hear the sound of bell from the right corner of your brain, your mind will create that sound for you. What’s so great about this. This is not the celestial sound that Gurbani is talking about.
The real celestial sound is that sound that the true Devotee hears after his Dasam Duar opens. This sound is the sound from Sachkhand. It is the sound of mehima or sifat-salaah of Vaheguru going on in Sach Khand. It is bizarre that RS has placed Dasam Duar at the third level. First of all Dasam Duaar cannot be called a region. It is, as the name implies, a doorway from where you can access Sach Khand and hear and feel Sach Khand. How can it be merely third level as RS suggests.
And how can Sohang which means “So main haan” i.e. That I am i.e. I am God, be the 4th level? Sohang does not even qualify as a Naam as per Gurmat. Gurbani is about Tu tu (you you) and not main main (I, I).
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When this whole universe of universes was created nothing existed not ever Sachkand or the other spiritual worlds that many saint's have talked about. Only the lord existed he was in himself and was himself, what is the lord? a power. That power out of it's will created the true spiritual home sachkand and created souls (which are a tiny drop of that power) to live in, then out of his will again he created the lower powers and lower worlds each power's job is to govern that particular stage or world. So in the end they became 5 spiritual worlds with 5 different powers.
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Vaise, the whole paragraph above is questionable but I will ignore the first part of it and look at the last few lines. Where in Gurbani does it say that he created 5 spiritual worlds and 5 powers. Even according to your own version, it should be 4 powers because in the topmost realm he himself is sitting (as per your saying).
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Now there is a difference in each power and world the first 3 worlds and it's rulers (powers) are the negative 1's why? Cos as aswel as spirit they also contain mind, which is a agent of kal the 3 lower rulers replica the higher 1's they even pretend to be the higher 1's when a soul reaches there. Hence there has to be 5 shabads to get u 2 sachkand.
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You write that the lower planes are the replica of the higher worlds. First of all, do the lords of lower worlds have access to the higher worlds? I think not. Then how did they create replica of the higher worlds? Secondly, who says that mann or the mind is the agent of Kaal? According to Gurbani, this mann when it colours itself with the colour of Naam, it becomes “Jyot saroop” as the following pankitis proves:
Mann tu jyot saroop hai, apna mool pachhaan||
(O Mann, you are jyot saroop. Recognize your real self)
Thirdly, on one hand RS says that all worlds have one lord and then RS says that the lower 3 worlds are governed by Kaal. Is it Kaal or 3 different lords? Make up your mind please.
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Ur right ONLY BHAKTI can turn a manmukh into a gurmukh and im gone give u a e.g. of my own personal situation. Ive been to India 3 times, the last time i went was bout 4 years ago when i went i bathed in Amritsar and lots of other Gudwara's, went to Hindu mandir's and so on. When i came back to England i felt nothing had changed, my mind is still the same and plays lots of tricks,
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The reason why ishnaan of Siri Amritsar Sahib did not make a difference on you is that you went as a sceptic and also you did ishnaan at non-Sikh places as well. The ishnaan of Siri Amritsar Sahib mostly (there are exceptions) brings grace on devout Gursikhs who fulfill all hukams of Guru Sahib. Then the ishnaan of Siri Amritsar Sahib acts as a catalyst in helping them spiritually.
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I also don't agree with Guru nanak only being the satguru in kalyug cos as we all know there are 4 main yugs that go 1 after the other they are the golden age, silver age iron age and the dark age (i can't remember the indian words for them) but what's gona happen in the golden age when that comes? will another satguru come or what if we are currently in kalyug then surely this being the darkest age the lord will help more and have more mercy why only send 1 guru for a particular period of time? the ppl who met him and got the teachings face to face were lucky what about every1 else, many amritdharies say he has left the banni to us now but im not convinced i wanna see the lord and not keep reading bout him all my life.
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In all yugs, only one Satguru has been doing all the action. The only difference is that in Kalyug Satguru himself took the avatar whereas in other yugs, Satguru did his tasks through other avatars like Krishna, Rama etc. You should read Bhatta de Savaiye for details. We have discussed this many times on this forum and there is no point repeating it again.
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fighting 4 Khalistan being separate and any1 who kills and fights 4 this cause are called saint's that to me does not make sense God say's this ant ur real home it's only for a short period so why bother about this world and it's politics and who's land is who's and my religion this urs that why is there all this fighting in the world?
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Sikhs were forced to fight and they fought in self defence. Siri Guru Gobind Singh jee Maharaaj and our sixth Guru – Siri Guru Hargobind Sahib jee Maharaj fought in self defence. There is nothing wrong in doing so. AS the matter of fact it is a must to speak out against injustice. The RS gurus kept quiet all through this. To me this sounds like cowardice. They did not utter a word against Sikh militants (if they thought they were wrong) nor against the government atrocities. This proves that they are not true Gurus. A true Guru cannot stay quiet in the fact of injustice.
Sanjsingh, I see that you are a good person and genuinely want spiritual progress but I suggest that you be very selfish when it comes to your spiritual goals. Now that you are RSSB, work hard and spend enormous times in what they prescribe but give it a time limit too. If you don’t progress in couple of years, you should consider opting out. Give Sikhi a try. I can assure you that if you give your full to Sikhi, your spiritual attainment will surpass your imaginations.
Kulbir Singh
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Author: Jobe
Date: 06-29-06 08:16
****admin cut for profanity. Radhasoamis are resorting to profanities now. The better thing is to debate sensibly. ********
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Author: balwinder singh
Date: 07-06-06 05:10
how i can meet the name jotnarajan on the internet
.
pls help me for finding site
thanks
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Author: Padam
Date: 07-28-06 03:36
Its really surprising to find that Radhaswami is considered Sikkh. Many Radhaswami followers don't even know this. Especially those who dont live in Punjab.
To me Radhaswami name can be explained as follows
Radha : Is a type of bhakti which believes in no boundaries, exactly same as the person Radha who was devotee of Lord Krishna. She did not believe in any rules, regulations, restrictions when it came to Lord Krishna. Neither did she care about right and wrong when it came to her devotion of Lord Krishna. This type of boundless bhakti is called Radha.
Swami : The lord.
So Radhaswami to me is the 'Lord of Boundless devotion'
I dont think it has got anything to do with Sikkhism
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Author: ANONYMOUS
Date: 10-02-06 01:03
Truth needs no justification; the only way to verify the truth is to experience it and thats all. So, there is no need to explain about your Gurus. Those who believe the dead Guru or those who believe in the alive Guru should not make conflicts.
Because what you are discussing through "definitions" and "words" is beyond the reach of your "physical mind" so discuss it with what they say as the internal mind (first learn to capture your internal mind...!).
Only fools can continue such discussions (irrespective of their worshipings....!)
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Author: daas_harveen_singh_manchester
Date: 10-02-06 03:29
vah bhai vah kyaa baat hai!
what a debate.
its not the RSpeople fault. they just know that they are wrong but you know, ahankaar yes yess ahankaar , they cant say that we are wrong because they will lose they're self respect(which they actually don't have).
ANYWAYS "Moorke naal naa lujhiai"
this is all i will say this time
wjkkwjkf
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Author: maninder singh
Date: 11-14-06 11:25
Hello,
there are many different ways and paths in which to reach our goal of self-realisation which leads to god-realisation.
E,g
A maths class in china makes the children use an abacus to calcaualte answers but in d west a calcuator would be used.
These are both very different methods but both achive the same answer, and this is the same with the spiritual paths in the world today.
The aims of RSSB and sikhi self realisation are the same,
get rid of lust anger greed ego and pride. this is done by doing seva, singing and listening to shabads but this just creats the lovong atmosphere and dont not have enough power by them selves.
The next step which has the power is the SIMRAN.
Doing simran using the tongue will not focus ur concentration as ur still focusing outwards to the lower region (the world). U need to repeat (which every word, Mantra) wid ur minds tongue which is linked to the higer regions.
the body has to be still as there can not be calm if the water has waves ths is the same for the mind.
Now the question of y there are 5 names and the power of the names is irrelvant because with all this energy wasted on this you could of all been enlighted if you put this much energy into you meditation.
Names with out a master giving them to U is like BULLETS withour a GUN, so the names given above are powerless till RSSB Baba ji initiates U.
Now for GOD REALISATION, the simran calms the water of the mind allowing the celestial sound, shabad, naam, (wat ever you want to call it) run freely into the minds ear.
the reason for the special postion to hear the sound is so that there is no interfreance for the outside world because the mind is so restless and easly distracted it wants to hear outside sounds.
Its like wen revising for an exam U sudenly find cleaning UR room d number 1 thing todo even if exam d next day, the mind is exactly like this.
the simran is done for 30 mins to calm the mind, then there is listening to the shabad for within, and if there is light thats a bonus.
The FINAL part is to concentrate (diyan) at the 3RD eye centre and wait lovingly for the form of the master to appear, this will only happen wen it is meant to hapen and needs lots of concentreation as the mind and KAAL have many tricks to play.
Excep for the fial Diyan the meditation methods are the same.
If there has always been 1 (or more) PERFECT LIVING MASTER on this earth, Y cant there be any now??
The Granth Sahib is the same as the Bible, Sanskirt (Gita), Koran, as these are guides on how to live our lives wid morals and to find a PERFECT LIVING MASTER which can take us home.
The path HOME is a dangerous 1 and as the PERFECT LIVING MASTER has been there already he alone can help us not a book which is a guide in the right direction.
E,g
WHY do we go school if all we need to do is read a few books. We need sum 1 who has already been through it before so can help us to reach there level and that person is a teacher (master of there subject).
RSSB is not a religion it is a spritual path leading to GOD, as the master is god in human form as his disciples cancommunicate with him, GOD is taking his flock of sheep bak home.
Thank you, May peace be upon you.
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Author: fresno sikh
Date: 11-14-06 12:41
SSAKAL
Why do Radha Swami guru disguise themselves in sikh image? All radhaswami do is change the Gurmantar and give their own 5 word mantar.
All the teach is borowwed from Guru Granth sahib. Just add the living Guru concept. We will see when the time comes to sacrifice for some cause see if the perfect living guru rises up to the challenge like Guru Arjan Dev ji or Guru Teg Bahadur ji or take cover with the government like the Nirankari Baba.
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Author: Man Singh
Date: 11-14-06 13:50
Do I remind to my friends above wasting their time in debates the following quotation of japji sahib
"The Vedas and the Puraanas speak. The scholars speak and lecture. Brahma speaks, Indra speaks.
Page 6
The Gopis and Krishna speak. Shiva speaks, the Siddhas speak. The many created Buddhas speak. The demons speak, the demi-gods speak. The spiritual warriors, the heavenly beings, the silent sages, the humble and serviceful speak. Many speak and try to describe Him. Many have spoken of Him over and over again, and have then arisen and departed. If He were to create as many again as there already are, even then, they could not describe Him. He is as Great as He wishes to be. O Nanak, the True Lord knows. If anyone presumes to describe God, he shall be known as the greatest fool of fools! || 26 ||"
Don'nt we feel that those who waste their time in useless discussions about God are fools of the fools.
please stop this nonsense of downplaying each other and focus on our own developement on path of truth. Let's ask God himself what's right and what's wrong whenever got confused. I am sure God is kind enough to guide us even today.
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