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Author: Davinder Singh's email
Date: 12-31-03 17:17
Got this email from Davinder Singh of Vancouver. Please read it carefully. It makes a lot of sense:
Waheguru ji ka khalsa whaeguru ji ki fateh!
Last year I picked up a singh from the airport and we were listening to Jasbir Singh chandigrh's tape of akhandkirtan. The line he was singing was Joo larray Dean Kay Hait, SURA SO, SURA SO. To us it seemed very odd, becasue we had always been used to hearing Sura SOYE, Sura SOYE. I dont know where this sora SOYE came from I just checked amrit kirtan right now and Jasbir Singh was indeed right when he said sora SO. This means that everyone had made a mistake in pronouncing this perticular word. I have heard a lot ok kirtan and never before had heard such an ucharran.
This is a prime example of Kirtaneeai singhs not paying attention to what they are singing.
We just had our Winter Smagam and Bhai Amolak Singh from California came here. We discussed quite a bit about Ucharran and viakaran and at the end of the Raensbayee he came to me and said that many kirtaneae were making mistakes like Moah(attachment) and MOhai(me/mine). And others with bindi and bisraam. I was amazed at how much he grasped and applied what he knew to many places in bani. Imagine if we all educate the next generation of kirtanee with proper knowledge of Gurbani Viakaran.
Most of the youth that do kirtan dont even know punjabi to well. I think that we arnt getting the Guru's Khushi because we arent working hard enough to even read gurbani properly. The big difference between the AKJ and others in India is that they are all well educated and know proper punabi grammar and so they can read Bani correctly. Whereas others like sant-deray dont have much education and follow only waht the sants told them about bani. I think that the Older generation does not want to be taught anything by anyone. This singh at Khalsa School During amritvela Nitname was pronouncing one word totally wrong and he wasn't even reading it as it was on the gutka. He told me that I am right and you ar wrong period. He wasnt even willing to listen to what I was saying. I think as people get older their thinking becomes narrow and they dont want to listen.
We can arrange camps at smagams where only bani is discussed. We should come up with a clear Gurbani Ucharran Lessons that teach the very basics, even punjabi if need be. I can help out with this if you are interested in it. Here in vancouver people make so many mistaskes but all the elder singhs dont even notice or they dont want to take the initative because they dont bother to do anything about it. The bindi is supposed to be the trademark of AKJ but these youth kirtainee dont use any bindis at all. others try to put parmans but get it all wrong, others put dhunni at wrong places. Im not criticizing them im just saying that the elder generation of kirtanee need to teach them the proper way of reading bani and doing proper kirtan.
I hope we can develope a proper plan to deal with this. If we work on this together we can get this done in no time!
waheguru ji ka khalsa whaeguru ji ki fateh
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Author: Kulbir Singh
Date: 12-31-03 17:30
Veer Davinder Singh has so beautifully pointed out that it is very important to do correct pronounciation of Gurbani.
Some gursikhs argue that we should read baani as written. They discourage the use of bindi (nasal sound). The problem is that unless we pronounce nasal sounds correctly, we cannot do shudh uchaaran (correct pronounciation) of Gurbani.
Sant Giani Gurbachan Singh jee Bhindranwaalay has suggested the use of bindi (nasal sound) in his book - "Gurbani Paath Darshan". He writes about the third salok of Siri Sukhmani Sahib. The third salok of Siri Sukhmani Sahib is:
BAHU SHASTER BAHU SIMRITI, PEKHAI SARAB DHADOL||
In this pankiti, the word "Dhadol", should be pronounced as "Dhandol" i.e. by placing a "tippee" on top of "Dhadha". Unless we do that, the word, "Dhadol" without tippee stays meaningless. Only with "tipee" (nasal sound) we get the correct word "Dhandol" which means "to find".
Sant jee in this beautifully written book provides hundreds of leads and advices to correct pronounciation.
Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee has written a monumental book called - "Gurbani diyaan lagaan maatraan dee vilakhantaa". In this book Bhai Sahib has written that the sound of bindi is essential in doing correct pronounciation. Bhai Sahib writes a very interesting saakhi that goes as follows:
Siri Guru Gobind Singh jee had Bhai Sahib Mani Singh jee write the Damdami Saroop of Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee, at Guru kee Kanshi - Damdama Sahib. Bhai Sahib Mani Singh jee with folded hands did benti (request) before Siri Guru jee. Bhai Mani Singh jee said that he had seen the Aad Granth prepared by Pancham Paatshaah - Siri Guru Arjun Dev jee and had noticed that it had more bindiyaan than the current saroop.
Siri Guru jee smilingly said that he had deliberately left out bindiyaan so that the gursikhs do paath with understanding. If we understand paath, we would automatically place bindiyaan at appropriate words e.g. plural nouns etc.
In the light of this, it is clear that bindiyaan are a must to Gurbani Uchaaran. To be continued.
Daas,
Kulbir Singh
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Author: Someone
Date: 12-31-03 17:48
I am just saying that if we want to learn correct to correct pronunciation, we shud go to india and learn it from damdami taksal..
in the meanitme, we can learn from here, but 100% shudh is dam dami taksal
quote:
Siri Guru jee smilingly said that he had deliberately left out bindiyaan so that the gursikhs do paath with understanding. If we understand paath, we would automatically place bindiyaan at appropriate words e.g. plural nouns etc.
----yes damdami taksal believes this, becuz i was listening to katha of a damdami taksal wala bhai and he was at dasmesh darbar at the time...)--
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Author: Someone
Date: 12-31-03 18:56
they teach truly correct gurbani pronounciation at tapoban. they have many gurbani path classes going on there. learn shud paat there. you dont have to go to india to learn paat.
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Author: Kulbir Singh
Date: 12-31-03 19:03
PUTREE KAUL NA PAALIYO, KAR PEERHO KANN MURATTEEYE||
(His (Guru Nanak Sahib's) sons did not obey his order and turned their backs on Siri Guru jee)
Some gursikhs who don't know about nasal sound, pronounce "Putree" without nasal sound. If we don't raise the nasal sound in the end of "putree" then the meaning of this word would be "daughter" but if you put bindi on the ending bihaari of this word, the word then means "sons".
Dear readers, just look at this pankiti. How opposite the meanings of this pankiti would be if we don't pronounce "nasal" sound in the end of "putree". It should be "Putreen" (putraan ney) and not "putree" which means daughter.
There are hundreds of such examples in Gurbani where bindi is a must to pronounce and I will be posting them on this message board regularly.
Daas,
Kulbir Singh
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Author: DAVINDER SINGH
Date: 12-31-03 20:57
waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!
lets try to start online santhya of Shri Japjee Sahib the following is up till the 3rd pauree... please contribute
1) Ik o(n)(g)kar is the correct ucharran in Punjabi is and oora with an open mouth, a tippi{(n)(g) sound} on the aara a kana with a kaka and a rara. Pronouncing it as eakomgkar is wrong. The 1 in front is pronounced as Ik not eak as in hindi. The above ucharan is also used in Bhai Gurdaas Jees Vars.
2) The ucharan of Sai BHng seprate is incorrect the shudh ucharran is SaiBHng(one word)
3) Pronouncing Persaad as Pershad is incorrect. Persaad means with the kirpa of the guru, and Pershad means something to eat or krah parshad.
4) Reading Jup as Japo is not right. Jup is the name of the bani. There is a bisram after jup.
5) Hai BHee is not one word, ucharan should be separate.
6) When the keka of Nanak is a mukta(without any lag-mater) then a pause should be given after Nanak.
7) Bindi on Sochee(n) in Jai Sochee(n) lakh vaar.
8) Bindi on Rahaa(n) in jai laye rahaa(n) liv taar.
9) Bindi on Bukhayaa(n) in bukhayaa(n) bhukh naa uttari.
10) Bindi on Puriaa(n) in Ji Banaa Puriaa(n) Bhaar.
11) Bindi on Sianpaa(n) & Hoyee(n) in sais sianpaa(n) lakh hoyee(n).
12) Rajey is incorrect in hukam Razayee(n) chalanaa. Is from Raza, which means the hukam of waheguru; the such ucharran is Razayee(n).
13) Bindi on Paiyaae(n) in Hukam Likh Dukh Sukh Paiyaae(n).
14) Bindi on Hukamee(n) & Bhavayaae(n) in Ik hukamee(n) sada bhavayaae(n).
15) Many Jatha singhs say a kana when there is the letter aara at the end of a word. The purpose of the aara is to just make the sound of the first letters in front longer, not add a kaena. So the ucharran of Jee is not Jeea(Hukamee hovan Jee).
16)Bindi on Vadayeea(n) in Gavai ko gun vidayaa chaar.
17) Bindi on Koatee(n) in Kath kath kathee koatee(n) koat koat.
18) Bindi on Dai(n)da, La(n)dai and Pahai(n) in dai(n)da sai la(n)dai thak pahai(n).
19) Bindi on Kaheyee(n) & khahai(n) juga joganter kaheyee(n) Khahai(n).
20) Pronouncing Rah and Vehpervah as Rahoo and Vehpervahoo is ashudh. The unkar at the end in gurbani is used to specify it as a singular.
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Author: Malton 187
Date: 01-01-04 04:12
"The bindi is supposed to be the trademark of AKJ "
whats thats supposed to mean?
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Author: Kulbir Singh
Date: 01-01-04 08:52
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12) Rajey is incorrect in hukam Razayee(n) chalanaa. Is from Raza, which means the hukam of waheguru; the such ucharran is Razayee(n).
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Davinder Singh jeeo, just wanted to clarifiy that "Razaayee" means Vaheguru i.e. Razaa waala. Siftee means Vaheguru too i.e. Sifat waala. Saalaahee means Vaheguru i.e. Saalaah waala.
Hukam Razaayee chalna means "Razaayee de Hukam Vich chalna" i.e. To obey the hukam of Razaayee Vaheguru. I think Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee has interpreted "Razaayee" as Vaheguru. And it makes sense too. The word "Hukam" has already been used. There is no need to repeat it again in "Razaayee".
So Razaayee means Razaawala Vaheguru and not "Hukam" as some think.
Veer Davinder Singh is 101% correct in saying that we should not pronounce it as "Rajaayee". It should be pronounced as "Razaayee" (with a "z" and not "j")
Daas,
Kulbir Singh
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Author: erm
Date: 01-01-04 14:56
giani sant kartaar singh khalsa ji bhindranwale says rajaayee, and not razeyee, after listening to his gurbani ucharan, thats what i heard...
also, i would like to emphasize this:
i was listenign to katha one day
in the end pauri of anand sahib which starts from
anadh sunahu vaddabhaageeho sagal manorathh poorae ||
Listen to the song of bliss, O most fortunate ones; all your longings shall be fulfilled.
its actually anad and not anand, many ppl have the misconception that it is anand, and should be said with a tippi,
but then again, i was listening to katha, and its actually anadh, pronounced the way it is spelt
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Author: DAVINDER SINGH
Date: 01-01-04 20:40
Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!
I haven't had traditional "santhaya" but have had quite a few sahaj paaths corrected by my parents where there were bindiaa and meanings of difficult words. But with guru sahibs kirpa I am able to drive the meaning of pangati like we get the meaning of english poetry, with the help of one or two words whose meaning is already known.
So in this case(hukam razayee) i just guessed the meaning that there was hukam=bhanaa{will of waheguru} and razayee{also like hukam} so i guessed that the meaning was the hukam of waheguru. Bhai kulbir Singh jee is absloutely right, i checked Talwara jees tika on nitname and his meaning is exactly what bhai kulbir singh said in the the above post.
I think that Having only shudh ucharran{where to put bindi, tipee, adhak etc.} in not enough. After having shudh ucharran we must read about the meaning of bani. If you pick up a book{Tika} that has meanings of bani you will be amazed at the teachings of the guru and the amount of enjoyment that you get once you start to understand the meanings. You get never that kind of "Rass" when you read novels, short stories, the newspaper or other poems.
We should all try to understand at least 1 page everyday from a tika{Bhai Harbans Singhs tika tell you where to put bindi bisram and adhak etc.} Spending one hour on santhya from a tika will go a long way in gurbani ucharran too. Once you know the meanings then you will automatically know where to place a bindi.
I know we got busy lives but if you are committied to doing this then Guru Sahib will do kirpa.....
Thanks once again to bhai kulbir singh for correcting the meaning!
waheguru ji ka khalsa whaeguru ji ki fateh!
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Author: Kulbir Singh
Date: 01-01-04 21:13
ERM,
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its actually anad and not anand, many ppl have the misconception that it is anand, and should be said with a tippi,
but then again, i was listening to katha, and its actually anadh, pronounced the way it is spelt
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It is definitely "Anand" with tippee. As mentioned before, the nasal sound is necessary many times. If we don't pronounce it "Anand" then what would it mean? What is "Anad"?
It is totally wrong to say "Anad" instead of "Anand".
As for "Razaayee" it is indeed with "Z" and not "J". "Rajaayee" means blanket and "Razaayee" means Vaheguru. You decide how wrong it is to say "Rajaayee".
Daas,
Kulbir Singh
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Author: DAVINDER SINGH
Date: 01-01-04 21:37
Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!
Malton 187 wrote:
"The bindi is supposed to be the trademark of AKJ "
whats thats supposed to mean?
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What I ment to say that whoever did kirtan in the jatha about 20 years ago they had full knowledge of gurbani viakaran and ucharran. And the majority of them were akhandpathis who could do paath for long periods. So they all used bindi.
For a long time{I think} that the jatha was the only sansthaa that as a whole pronounced the bindi. But as the panth got more and more educated missionaries and others began to incorporate bindi into their ucharran.
If you listen to Bhai Jeevan Singh jee doing kirtan then you know that his way of doing kirtan is very pleasent to the ear, thats becasue he has a great command od the shabad, this includes Ucharran and Bindi usage.
But now the AKJ singhs and babbian who do kirtan dont do any vichaar of the shabad and thus they miss out places where there should be a bindi adhak or bisraam.
We are all educated and so we should get to know the shabad before doing it on stage. We are capable of doing it. Even going to sikhitothemax.com we can figure out where to put bindi,tipi, adhak etc. Sadly no one attempts to do that...
But when someone comes perpared with having studied the meanings and with a correct ucharran of the shabad then you can tell where the kirtanaya is doing the shabad from.
SDO's kirtan used to be so heart-pircing becasue he spent loads of time studying bani. You can confirm this from singhs that were close to him...
Now days people copy SDO's tunes BUT NOT what went into them.{I am not out to promote SDO's kirtan}
any kirtaneea that is reading this, please! make an attempt to understand bani and viakarn/ucharran of the shabads that you do.
Also I think that the singhs and Bhai randheer singh jee were able to get the preat{Ghost} in Undithee Dunya because of their way of ucharran. All of them used the bindi and tippi. THe Ghost the so many restrictions on the singhs. One of them were that the Bani must be Extra-Shudh.
So that proves that bindi usage is tat gurmat and parvaan everywhere.
The kathavachaks and gianis that say that gurbani MUST be read as it is wretten is total manmutt! they were probably taught by some samperdaya that teaches this. Even if you give them a million examples that prove bani should be read with bindi/tipi they dont budge from their stand, which is sad.
BANI WAS MENT TO BE READ USING BINDI/TIPI/ADHAK!
Waheguru ji ka khalsa whaeguru ji ki fateh!
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Author: Kulbir Singh
Date: 01-02-04 20:11
The two main pillars of shudh Gurbani Uchaaran (correct Gurbani Pronounciation) are Bindi (nasal sounds) and bisraams (pauses).
As Veer Davinder Singh mentioned, Bindi is very important and that only those Gursikhs who read baani with understanding can pronounce bindi. Same way only those gursikhs who understand baani can make correct pauses in Gurbani. Saadh Sangat jeeo, please ponder upon the following pankiti and you will realize how important bisraams are:
GUR ARJUN GHAR GUR RAAMDAAS, BHAGAT UTTAR AAIYO||
(Guru Arjun Dev the Bhagat of Vaheguru, took birth in the house of Guru Raamdas jee)
If we read this pankiti by placing bisraam after "Ghar" as most paathis do, then we do such a disaster. The meaning then is that "Guru Ramdaas jee took birth in the house of Guru Arjun Dev jee". We all know that Guru Raamdaas jee Maharaaj is father of Guru Arjun Dev jee Mahaaraaj and not the other way round.
In order to get the correct meanings out of this pankiti we must place a bisraam after "Arjun" as follows:
GUR ARJUN, GHAR GUR RAAMDAAS.............||
So Khalsa jeeo, let us be extra careful in doing Gurbani Paath. We will be putting up some common bisraam related mistakes from Siri Jap jee Sahib in the next few days.
Daas,
Kulbir Singh
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Author: DAVINDER SINGH
Date: 01-03-04 16:41
Waheguru ji ka khalsa whaeguru ji ki fateh!
Many people think that the bindi is only used on top of a word. Like on a kunna. But Half of the time the bindi is used "per vich" like on a sassa making it sound as a shesha.
The Bindi is also used with a jeja, when u put a bindi under the jeja you get a z sound. This is used many places in Jap Sahib.
The Z sound is used many times in gurbani where there is "ZOR" meaning force or power. When there is a "jeja hora rara & unkar" you put a bindi 'in the feet' of the jeja so the word will be ZOR. This is how is is pronounced in correct punjabi. You will see many educated people say ZOR instead of jor.
In the 33rd puree of Japjee sahib(Aakhan ZOR chepee na ZORll) All the "jor"s should be said as 'ZOR.'
it also comes in bani as well, like "ZOR kiya so Zulam hay" But in this case you have to put a bindi on Zulam as well becasue there is no such word as julam.
Nowadays no one uses "Paer vich bindi" in kirtan or paath. Only they gursikhs that have had a lot of training in gurbanibani ucharran use it.
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!
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Author: DAVINDER SINGH
Date: 01-03-04 20:08
Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!
Something else that came to mind that is related to Zor. Zorri is the plural for of ZOR. Zorri Means with force or excessive power.
But this must not be mistaken with Jory, it means to join, collect or bring back together. The spelling in both cases is the same, so the pathee must judge in which context the word is used in, from the meaning of the pangti.
Anywhere there is "julam", it should be always pronounced as "ZULAM" , this usage of bindi makes the meaning of the shabad perfectly clear to the listener, which in turn helps to understand the meaning of the pangati...
Some examples where Jory=to join, to collect
1) Gur tutee leh "jory" (Page 214)
2) Teen Bhavan kee lukhami "jory" bhoojan nahi lehari (Page 215)
3) Kinhoo laakh paanch kee "jory" (Page 337)
4) Sachee preet hum tum sayoo "jory" (Page 659)
Some examples where Jory=use of force/excessive power
1)Paap key junj leh kabloo dhaya "ZORY" mangaah dan vai lallooh(Page722)
2)Kabeer "ZORY" keeay ZULAM haey kartaa naoo hallall(Page 1374)
Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!
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Author: Kulbir Singh
Date: 01-03-04 21:48
Thank you Veer Davinder Singh for pointing out beautiful examples about placing bindi under the alphabets.
The example of "Zoree" and "Joree" is so perfect.
"Gur tootee lai joree" "Joree" means to connect where as in "Joreen mangai daan vey Laalo", "joree" (Zoree) means "by force or through cruelty".
Gursikhs who don't believe in pronouncing the "Z" sound should accept the importance of more than 35 sounds in Gurbani. Don't we have more than one sound for some letters in English e.g. C? Same way in Gurbani Guru Sahib used 35 letters to represent about 41 sounds. Gursikhs who are well-versed in knowledge and meanings of Gurbani, raise the correct sound of the alphabets.
Same way the letters "Lalla", "Jajja", "Khakha", "Gagga" and "Phapha" too have more than one sounds.
If we are to read as written as some gursikhs preach, then what is the need to have santhiya? Just learn the sound of the letters and read as written. The need for santhiya from gursikhs is required only and only because of bindi, bisraams, adhak and other complications that one cannot realize on his own.
Daas,
Kulbir Singh
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Author: -
Date: 01-03-04 22:39
Another example of Bishrams is when people sing the shabad Nanak dukhiyaa sab sansar. I think it is supposed to be Nanak, dukhiyaa sab sansar, which means that guru ji is saying that the whole world is unhappy. But many keertanis say Nanak dukhiya, sab sansaar. It is apparent that this is totally false, how could dhan sri Guru Banak Dev Ji ever be dukhi?
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Author: DAVINDER SINGH
Date: 01-04-04 12:02
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh!
There are many words in Gurbani that have bindi under the letters. But most kirtanees and pathees fail to use this kind of bindi. This bindi has the same amout of importance as the bindi on top of a word.
In Asa Dee Vaar there is a line "Musalmana Sift Shriat parrh parrh karran bichaar" When many people are doing asa dee vaar kirtan or reading it they say sriiayt, which has no meaning. This is totally wrong, but they dont even realize it because everyone else is saying the same thing.
There is a bindi under the sesa of "Shriat" and in order to read it correctly it must be read with a "SH" sound. Once again it is pronounced as "SH-ri-at".
This Shriat came from 'SHERA' which is the Muslim code or religious law that that the muslim community follows.
Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!
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Author: DAVINDER SINGH
Date: 01-04-04 12:18
Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!
A general rule with bisram: whenever you have "nanak" at the end of a shabad you give a bisraam after nanak. Putting bisraam after Nanak means "nanak" says this, "nanak" does ardass, etc.
In gurbani this word "nanak" is used to tell us directly what the guru is trying to say. This like the gurus STAMP that he specifies that it is his bani. In each shabad there is nanak in the last line that is the central message/theme/main jist of teh whole shabad. This one singh told me that the last line of hukam is the "nichoor" (extract) of the shabad.
for example: Nanak, neech kahaa(a) vichaarll {Japjee sahib}
Nanak, tin jan sharanee payall {sukhmani sahib}
Taksali singhs put a half bisraam in these places.
maybe bhai kulbir singh could expand on this.
waheguru ji ka khalsa whaeguru ji ki fateh
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Author: Kulbir Singh
Date: 01-04-04 20:32
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A general rule with bisram: whenever you have "nanak" at the end of a shabad you give a bisraam after nanak. Putting bisraam after Nanak means "nanak" says this, "nanak" does ardass, etc.
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Veer Davinder Singh is right. At most places, we should place a bisraam after "Nanak". Where ever "Nanak" is mukta we place a bisraam but if there is an aunkad in the end of "Nanak" we should not place a bisraam there.
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Nanak, neech kahaa(a) vichaarll
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I think the bisraam here should be after "Neech" and not after "Nanak". If we place bisraam after "Nanak", the meanings then are "Nanak is stating neech or bad vichaars". Guru Sahib is not stating bad vichaars. The word "neech" is an adjective of noun "Nanak" and not of noun "Vichaar".
The meaning is that Guru Sahib is calling himself a "neech" out of nimrata and for this reason the bisraam should be after "neech". All scholars like Professor Sahib Singh and Giani Harbans Singh have placed a bisraam after "Neech" and not after "Nanak".
When there is an aunkad, we must avoid placing a bisraam there. Only in very rare cases there would be a bisraam after "Nanak" if it has an aunkad.
"Nanak Tin Jan Sharni Paiya" is from Siri Sukhmani Sahib. In this case, it is right to place a bisraam after "Nanak" as in this case, Siri Guru jee is addressing himself (O Nanak). It is a rule of Gurbani that we should place a bisraam when ever someone is addressed.
Daas,
Kulbir Singh
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Author: DAVINDER SINGH
Date: 01-05-04 10:01
Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!
Bhai sahib bhain Jeeven Singh jee has great command of language. He knows "lehanday punjab de boli" thats the language Vaar maru dakhanai is wretten in. He also knows a lot of farsi. When bhai sahib talks with bibi jee in "dakhanai" it really is something else. BHai shaib jee also knows a great deal of viakaran and shudh ucharran. The following is from vancouver smagam 1995 thats when bhai sahib jee stopped kirtan and said "Gayee(e)" with a bindi. That was a very powerful sight. He often corrects the singhs singing in the background in such a manner. I have heard many times that where bhai jeevan singh jee puts a bindi no one else bothers to.
chaathrik sabadh sun akheeaa oughar gayee(e)ll
The correct ucharrn is gayee with a bindi on the bihiri of gayee.
waheguru ji ka khalsa whaeguru ji ki fateh!
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Author: Kulbir Singh
Date: 01-05-04 20:55
Bhai Sahib Jeevan Singh jee was absolutely right in pointing out that "Gayee" should be pronounced with bindi in the end. I just wanted to mention that "Akhiyaa" too should be pronounced with bindi in the end i.e "Akhiyaan" and "Sabad" should be pronounced as "Shabad".
By the way, what a beautiful pankiti this is.
Daas,
Kulbir Singh
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Author: Kulbir Singh
Date: 01-06-04 15:43
Please note that the bisraams (pause) in the third pauri of Siri Jap jee Sahib should be placed after "Gavai Ko".
Most gursikhs read "Gavai ko daat, jainai nishaan" but this is not correct. We must place a bisraam after "Ko" in this pauri.
As written before, bisraams are of utmost importance while doing paath. A good paathi is judged based on his or her bisraams and bindiyaan. If a paathi is going to read as written, then what is the point in having santhiya?
Daas,
Kulbir Singh
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Author: DAVINDER SINGH
Date: 01-06-04 16:23
Waheguru ji ka khalsa whaeguru ji ki fateh!
Bhai sahib bhai Jeevan Singh jee also on many occasions told the singhs singing behind him to say. ToSHa not tosa. As mentioned before bhai sahib jee has great knowledge of gurbani as a result he puts the bindi where it is needed. Bhai sahib jees ucharran is very shoudh, we should try to learn from him.
Tosha means wealth, or other supplies that are necessary for survival, it is like "Dhun" in punjabi. This may be a farsi word too...
Some places where in gurbani kirtan we should say TOSHA:
1)TOSHA bandhoo Jee ka Aathae oothae naal ll
in this pangati we must also remember not to miss teh dolavaa as many people do.
2) TOSHA har kaaa naam laee terai kolaa(a) naa laggae gal jeeo ll
3) in sukhmani sahib there is "Har kaa naam oohaa sang TOSHA ll"
4)this is from another popular shabad "Sang challan ko TOSHA deena gobind naam kai Baoohari"
5) Man ka TOSHA har naam hai hirdae rakhoo samaal ll
I am sure you can find other places where TOSHA is used. Remember The bindi used at the bottom of the letter is as imnportant as the one used on top.
waheguru ji ka khalsa whaeguru ji ki fateh!
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Author: Kulbir Singh
Date: 01-06-04 18:01
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Tosha means wealth, or other supplies that are necessary for survival, it is like "Dhun" in punjabi. This may be a farsi word too...
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Yes Tosha is a Farsi word and it means treasure. It also means food carried by the travellers when travelling. "Har ka Naam oohaan sang tosha" is a pankiti from Siri Sukhmani Sahib and here "Tosha" means food carried by the jeev-aatma. Only Naam can be food in the next world.
We have a Tosha-khaana at Siri Harmandir Sahib - Amritsar Sahib. No one calls it "Tosa Khaana". So why call it "Tosa" in baani.
Veer Davinder Singh is so right. We must place a bindi in the foot of "sassa" and pronounce it as "Shasha". The word is "Tosha" and not "Tosa".
Daas,
Kulbir Singh
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Author: DAVINDER SINGH
Date: 01-07-04 01:39
Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!
Today I was doing paath and this pangati came "Deh pavoo "jeen" bhuj changa raaam" I dont knwo where i got teh sojhi to say this but i just felt that there must be a bindi on jeen. I looked at a tika and it said that it is a saddle of a horse. I checked a few other places for this word and to my surprise it was indeed "Zeen" a saddle. There is a bindi under the jEja. Although this does not come in any "popular" shabads but it may come at other places in gurbani. Jut remember this when you are doing sahaj paath, who knows it may show up!
waheguru ji ka khalsa whaeguru ji ki fateh
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Author: uk singh
Date: 04-10-04 13:09
How would you guys read the following lines from Anand Sahib:
jaani-aa aanand sadaa gur tay kripaa karay pi-aari-aa.
kar kirpaa kilvikh katay gi-aan anjan saari-aa.
would you distinguish between kripa and kirpa or pronounce both as Kirpa?
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Author: wow
Date: 04-12-04 00:44
As i have learned.......
its
gavai ko taan, hovai kisaii taan
gavai ko daat, janaii nishaan
gavai ko , gun vadaeean chaar
and so forth with bisraam at gavai ko
And this is how damdami taksaal does it too..
and damdami taksaal singhs do Shudh paath!!! Its like maryada.....
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Author: Kulbir Singh
Date: 04-12-04 07:21
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How would you guys read the following lines from Anand Sahib:
jaani-aa aanand sadaa gur tay kripaa karay pi-aari-aa.
kar kirpaa kilvikh katay gi-aan anjan saari-aa.
would you distinguish between kripa and kirpa or pronounce both as Kirpa?
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Kirpa and Kripa are pronounced slightly differently. Many gursikhs pronounce "kripa" and place a sihaari on "raara" but that is wrong. When pronouncing "Kripa", one should still pronounce sihaari on "Kakka" but ensure that only "half raara" is pronounced. This can be done by placing an adhak on raara and sihaari on kakka.
Daas,
Kulbir Singh
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Author: Kulbir Singh
Date: 04-12-04 07:27
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gavai ko taan, hovai kisaii taan
gavai ko daat, janaii nishaan
gavai ko , gun vadaeean chaar
and so forth with bisraam at gavai ko
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The first two pankitis should be bisraamed as follows:
gavai ko, taan; hovai kisaii taan
gavai ko, daat janaii nishaan
In the first pankiti there is a jamkee (very small pause) after "ko" and a bisraam (full pause) after "taan".
In the second pankiti above there is a bisraam after "ko" and not after "daat".
I ask you, why do you place a bisraam after "daat"? What meaning do you derive by doing so?
If you place a bisraam after "daat" the meaning that becomes - "Some daat (ko daat) sings by recognising and remembering nishaan of Vaheguru". But this interpretation is incorrect. The meaning is "Someone sings Vaheguru, considering and rememberings his daats i.e. his gifts as nishaans". E.g. they look at what Vaheguru has given them and remember Vaheguru through his daats i.e. through his gifts. It is not his gifts that sing but the people who receive his gifts, who sing him.
Daas,
Kulbir Singh
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Author: kar kirpaa sab rayN thheevaa(n
Date: 04-14-04 14:56
today i just had a revelation
in my own mind, that is.
"mannai dharam seti sanbandh"
i just came to remember that in punjabi / hindi "sanbandh" means relationship
so, does this mean
by accepting God's will (mannai) you can establish a relationship with religion,
or you can only really join into a religion when you come to accept hukam?
is this correct?
bhul chuk maaf karnaa jee
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Author: kar kirpaa sab rayN thheevaa(n
Date: 04-14-04 14:59
gur eisar gur gorakh barma gur paarbatee maa-ee
most people agree the bisraam is:
gur eisar, gur gorakh barma, gur paarbatee maaee
however ---
why do some people say that the guru is parbati, saraswati, and some other goddesses?
if it only says "parbatee" why do they add other names?
essentially paarbatee is the fulfiller of desires, eisar gorakh and barma are the creator, destroyer and sustainer
this means guru is all of these.
but does guru jee "indirectly" refer to other people in this pankiti too?
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Author: .
Date: 04-17-04 02:55
no comments about the above ?
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Author: dass
Date: 04-20-04 22:46
wahigur ji ka khalsa wahiguru ji ki fateh
I was taksali one time in my life before 1984 then i learned a lot about taksal; about what they did or taught during that time.I was in ludhiana jail during 1984-1985 with sant jagir singh ji akhara, who taught sant jarnail singh's sons. I came to know that Taksal is not aware of gurbani viakaran; that means the taksal does not teach 100% shudh gurbani. You just need to practise and with Guru Ji's grace you will be a good pathi.
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Author: anon
Date: 02-09-05 20:13
i just came across this amazing thread right now, can someone answer kar kirpa sabh rayn theevan's question?
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Author: Jarnail Singh Gyani
Date: 02-10-05 03:25
Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji ki fateh.
The most enjoyable thread i have read so far on this forum... I will add my comments later. This is what I do..teach Shudh Ucharan of Gurbani..and this is my pet subject.
Dass above is absolutely right. Taksaal is the elast knowledgeable about Shuch Gurbani ucahran..they always isnsit on no bindis..JUST UCHAAR AS IT IS WRITTEN is their motto. Now that Gurbani viakaran has become widely known and it is proven that Gurbani "AS it is Written": makes ANARTH out of AARThs if bindis adhaks etc are NOT pronounced..they have begun to jump on the bandwagon..but ONLY on the more Obvious meanings. On others they still INSIST they are right......as in the Bisraam at Gavai ko DAAT,... which makes ANARTH out of AARTH.
IMHO the Bisram in Gur Isar, Gur Gorakh, Bramah GUR, Parbatee Mai. Note the title GUR is attached to Isar, Gorakh and Brahma...and Parbatee is Mai.
All who have a vested interest in Shudh Gurbani MUST PUSH this AGENDA as strongly as they can....Gurbani should be SHUDH Uchaaran..to be of any benefit. IF we all get together and go after this..slowly the mistakes will disappear.
The note about kirtaniyas is RIGHT. They are mostly DEVOID of even Basic GURMUKHI education..let alone GURBANI Viakaran and etc. Most of those locals in malaysia LEARN KIRTAN from ROMANISED ENGLISH kirtan Books..and learn OOra Airra afterwards just to escape attention from the oldies who often stress on punjabi....so they can turn ariound and say we also know punjabi lol.....and the kirtaniyas are more interested in Bollywood tunes to memeorise Gurbani shabads...
Thank You to Devinder Singh Ji and Kulbir Singh Ji for initiating this discussion. Please carry on.
jarnail Singh.
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Author: J Singh
Date: 02-10-05 14:34
It's so refreshing to read about gurbani ucharan from Singhs who understand it.
I don't have much knowledge of gurbani ucahran but just wanted to add that "Rajaa" in Gurmukhi also means "Razaa", so I pronouce it as hukam rajaayee (Vaheguru de rajaa or razaa wich), the way it's written.
Also, the word "Dhadol" isn't meaningless. It too means "to find", just as "Tatoal".
Understading gurmukhi isn't easy as many areas of Punjab had and continue to have their own way of pronoucing many words.
Bhul chuk maaf karna.
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Author: jagroop singh
Date: 12-16-06 08:05
VahigurooJeeKaKhalsa,VahigurooJeeKeeFateh!
bump...maybe we can continue this thread...
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Author: Khalistan_zindabaad
Date: 12-17-06 05:48
gurfateh,
the best thing to do is take santhia from some taksali singh who has actually stayed at taksal for many years and then with guru jees kirpa you may learn correct ucharan
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Author: Khalistan_zindabaad
Date: 12-17-06 05:49
ps for the last pangti of anand sahib i was told its anadh not anand. thats by the gursikh who gives me santhia. and i can say he knows alot
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Author: singh5
Date: 12-17-06 12:37
Although I respect Taksal, the ucharan by Taksali Singhs doesn't seem right to me a lot of the time.
If you read the word "Zafarnama" as it is written, word for word without adding any bindi or using any other rule of uchaaran, you are left with "Jaffarnameh" which is so totally wrong it's ridiculous. That's just one example.
To read bani "as it appears" without using any of the known rules for reading and pronouncing you end up reading totally wrong.
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Author: Khalistan_zindabaad
Date: 12-18-06 05:04
gurfateh, singh5 how many taksali singhs do you know that have pronounced zaffarnama. . . .listen to bhai jarnail singhs gurbani ucharan. . hes taksali and ucharan is shudh very shudh and alot of sangat listen to his ucharan-----
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Author: Khalistan_zindabaad
Date: 12-18-06 06:43
the funny thing is taksal is well known for its shud ucharan of gurbani amongst other things. but thats your opinion and its fine
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Author: singh5
Date: 12-18-06 10:43
I think you missed my point.
Everyone pronounces Zaffarnama as Zaffarnama. But the thing is that if you read it as it appears, and use the Taksali rules, you can't get that pronunciation.
Zaffarnama is as follows jPrnwmh.
There is no bindi at the feet of Jujja because Gurmukhi akhar don't have bindis there. This only started in the 1900s. Also the "haha" at the end is pronounced as a kunna because it is a Persian word (which often use the "haha" character to also give a kunna sound) and in some circumstances the "haha" must be pronounced as a kunna according to the rules of shudh uchaaran.
For example
solh AstpdIAw guAwryrI gauVI kIAw ]
Shudh uchaaran of the above would be "solah" ie. 16. But according to Taksali ucharan, it is pronounced "soleh".
same with drgh and qyrI pnh Kudwie qU bKsMdgI ]
These words are Dargah (court) and Panah (refuge). But despite these common pronunciations, Taksali uchharan is "dargeh" and "paneh" which doesn't make sense.
So everyone reads Zaffarnama just like that even though it appears to be spelt "Jaffarnameh" but according to Taksali ucharan, we don't place bindi in the feet and read the "haha" just as it appears and according to those rules it would be "Jaffarnameh"
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Author: Khalistan_zindabaad
Date: 12-18-06 10:55
oh sorry
have you spoken gurmukhs from taksal that give santhia why they pronounce it as such and what the meaning is to the way they do ucharan and the meaning to common ucharan.
fateh
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