lol but there are people who believe he was great. all im saying is that ur expected to have ur own views, just don't try to protray them as facts. only maharaaj knws the truth.
gurfateh parvaan.

baba amarjeet singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the answer to the question "did bhai sahib admit
> raagmala was gurbani" is, no.
> whoever says otherwise is lying.

Vaheguru jee ka khalsa,Vaheguru jee ke fateh!

This is a very narrow-minded way of putting it!
An like when you put,

"by that logic u werent there when hitler was around
so hitler could have been a great kind, generous man right?"

This is a ridulous comparision to say in the least. How can you compare Bani to some hitler human? The two issues are completly different because everyone agrees to what kind of person hitler was, where as not everyone agrees to the Raagmala issue.

Pull chuk marf,

Vaheguru jee ka khalsa,Vaheguru jee ke fateh!

I agree completely with the statement made by Atma Singh, We should look at the 95% thats the same rather than the 5% thats different otherwise how will the panth ever go forward.

Also why are people trying to change what has happened just to try and prove their associated jatha bandi right, Bhai Sahib Bhai Randear Singh did not say Ragmaala was bani...end ..just leave it that, and look at your own jeavans rather than try to put down the jeavans of such pavitar gurmukhs like Bhai Sahib.

bhul chuk maaf karni

vaheguroo ji ka khalsa vaheguroo ji ki fateh!!!

"
Vaheguru jee ka khalsa,Vaheguru jee ke fateh!

This is a very narrow-minded way of putting it!
An like when you put,

"by that logic u werent there when hitler was around
so hitler could have been a great kind, generous man right?"

This is a ridulous comparision to say in the least. How can you compare Bani to some hitler human? The two issues are completly different because everyone agrees to what kind of person hitler was, where as not everyone agrees to the Raagmala issue.

Pull chuk marf,

Vaheguru jee ka khalsa,Vaheguru jee ke fateh!"

everyone knows bhai sahib didnt belelive in raagmala just like everyone knows hitler was an evil man.
im not comparing bani im comparing 2 beleifs
bhai sahib was a staunch beleiver than raagmala aint bani, just like hitler was a staunch beliver tht jews were evil
both are well known facts
until certain ppl try to twist facts

baba jee bachan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> lol but there are people who believe he was great.
> all im saying is that ur expected to have ur own
> views, just don't try to protray them as facts.
> only maharaaj knws the truth.
> gurfateh parvaan.

baba jee bachan

only maharaaj knws the truth.
_____________________________________________

show us some evidence that prove bhai sahib admitted raagmala was bani

frankly i think whoever says bhai shaib believed in raagmala is looking to discredit bhai sahib

VAHEGUROOJEEKAAKHALSA VAHEGUROOJEEKEEFATEH!

i am a member of akhand kirtani jatha so is my grandad & dad, my grandad met bhai sahib bhai randhir singh jee and spent some time with him, i asked him about this situation he told me its true (i was very shocked to hear this) my grandad and other singhs were present when the taksal singhs came to meet bhai sahib ji at his house in ludhiana,bhai sahib ji did admit raag mala was bani,bhai sahib bhai randhir singh ji's son was also present at the time as he was the one who helped serve langar to the singhs, my grandad says some of the singhs that were present are still alive and so is bhai sahib jis son they can tell you if its true too. my grandad is an akhand pathee from bhai sahib jees time, even in india now akhand kirtani jatha singhs do akhand paath samaptee with raagmala.

i read all the comments to my grandad he was very shocked he said singhs are getting into alot of krodh (anger) about this subject, he said this is not what bhai sahib jee would hav wanted, and same to you taksal singh sant gurbachan singh ji wudnt hav wanted all this anger either.
my grandad said bhai sahib ji was a very calm person with a lot of nimrataa (humbleness) and love for everyone in the jatha and out of the jatha too. my grandad said this to you all - ''singho bhai sahib vangu nimrata vich rehio bhai sahib ji ne inee charcha raag mala barey nahee kitee phir asi hun kyo shuru ho geye? apney nitneym badhawo, simran badhawo is cheeza wich bhai sahib ji khush hundey yaa.'' (''singhs keep in nimrata like bhai sahib ji did, bhai sahib did not do this much of a discussion on raag mala so who are we to do it now? increase your nitneym, increase your simran this is what will please bhai sahib ji.'')

my views changed alot too after finding out what my grandad said to me as i also believed bhai sahib ji cud not hav admitted to it..

bhul chuk maafi to every one if you do not like what me and my grandad said

VAHEGUROOJEEKAAKHALSA VAHEGUROOJEEKEEFATEH!

Waheguru ji ki Khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

ਆਹਾ ਅਸ਼ਕੇ ਖੁੰਬਾ ਵਾਂਗੂੰ ਉਠ ਰਹੇ ਪੋਸਟਰਾਂ ਦੇ ਅਤੇ ਦਿਲਚਸਪ ਮਨੋਕਲਪਿਤ ਕਹਾਣੀਆਂ ਦੇ। ਦੇਖਿਉ ਕਿਤੇ ਇਸ ਚਲ ਰਹੀ ਗੰਗਾ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਕੋਈ ਹੱਥ ਧੋਣੌ ਰਹਿ ਨਾ ਜਾਵੇ।

Jasdeep jio, sorry for your grand dad. Didn’t he also tell you that he (grand dad) was beaten up a lot and almost broke teeth for this conspiracy story and insects started to come out from his (grand dad) mouth?

Guru Mehar Karay

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Thanks for sharing your grandfather's story jasdeep ji, but there is one problem with it. Why did it take your grandfather more than 45 years to share this story with others? Why just now ?

I can easily say my grandfather witnessed the opposite where Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji admitted that Ragmala was not bani, but that does not prove anything. Your grandfather needs to collaborate his account with details of what else happened that day, who else was there, etc.

Can your grandfather name anyone else who is still alive and witnessed this event also?
If so then this information needs to be shared.

Also what is your grandfather's recollection about anything else they talked about that day. Was Keski as a Kakkar discussed by Baba Ji and Bhai Sahib ?
I am sure other things besides just Raagmala was discussed by those great souls.

There was still quite a few Gurmukhs who are still alive from Bhai Sahib's days. Further details about this even can be easily verified by those GurSikhs.

Looking forward to the details...

vaheguroojeekakhalsa,vaheguroojeekeefateh!

dear veer/bhain 'jasdeep' jeeo,

i would have emailed you privately instead of posting here but you haven't given an email address; i think this thread has gone on as far as it should really and so didn't really want to add to it but here goes (typical me!):

if you really believe what you say is true, then i suggest you name your grandfather to some respected elder jatha singhs, preferably who carry out amrit sanchaar seva, so that they can proceed from there.

if bhai sahib really did believe in raagmala all of a sudden, then your grandfather should feel like letting the jatha and panth officially know so that jatha can be requested to take stock of this development and respond accordingly. he could of course give them the info he possesses, whether oral, documentary etc. and remain anonymous. if raagmala was indeed gurbaaNee, this would be a great seva for your grandfather to be blessed with.

my personal and firm belief is that anyone who knows anything about bhai sahib knows that his whole life, his thoughts and deeds, portrayed someone who was in love with the truth and simply could never keep quiet in the face of falseness or dishonesty. there is no need to even quote examples i am sure.

do we really think that upon finding-out that raagmala was gurbaNee after all, he would have stayed quiet? that notion goes against eveything he represented. to think he would let a jatha of singhs and singhneeaa(n) who had a lot of love for him and vice-versa, carry-on not reading raagmala while he himself did means he must have 'kept the real truth a secret'. this is preposterous...

that he would effectively let them remain unaware of this seismic change in his outlook - an outlook which influenced so many others...that he would let them continue 'disregarding maharaaj jee's baaNee'...i think you get my point.

veer/bhain 'jasdeep' jee, coming onto this forum, with just a first name and no email address, without naming your grandfather and offering no real proof apart from hearsay is not really helpful - i am sure you understand the reasons why.

lastly, every jatha singh/singhnee who doesn't believe in raagmala should do their best to read both anti and pro stance literature so that they do not simply believe something because bhai sahib did.

if you are about to disregard something which appears in many puraatan saroops then be very firm in your belief by looking into it DIRECTLY off your own back; of course, ardaasaa(n) to maharaaj jee are part of this. bhai sahib certainly wouldn't weant you to simply believe something upon the basis that you only believe it because he did - i am sure he would feel that you have turned him into a 'guroo'.

Like-wise those reading this who believe raagmala is gurbaaNee should do the same. it should not be a case that 'so and so said it is so i believe it is'. the issues regarding raagmala are too many and too important to simply formulate an opinion in such a rudimentary manner. shardaa in a kamaee-vala gursikhs/'sants' and their bachans is not a bad thing when it comes to your sikhee but when it comes to your guroo jee's roop, the connection and searching should be direct, not with someone deciding for you in the middle.

always remember when looking into raagamala that the raagmala issue aside, kachee baaNee was historically placed into maharaaj jee's saroop e.g. ratanmaala, saloks regarding prophet muhammad, ink recipes, etc. it was agreed at a panthic level historically to take it out. so please do not let the heartfelt emotion caused when thinking 'how can we removes something mahraaj jee's saroop' be your overarching factor for being pro-raagmala. the fact is that if the panth previously had this attitude, we would all be doing paath of those kachee baaNeeaa(n) mentioned above.

treat the raagmala issue as something you have to PERSONALLY look into, and PERSONALLY decide regarding. do not tell yourself you will discuss the ins and outs on worldwide forums. do not get into arguments and tit-for-tat wars - these only decrease the love within the panth and bring the panth into dehndee kalaa. If someone asks for your opinion, give it. If someone doesn’t, don’t. if someone is thirsty, give them water, if they are not, do not ram it down their throats.

i write the above as someone who realised that this was the way that i had to go about finding-out about and deciding re: the raagmala debate.

ps - i spoke to a young singh the other day. he told me, proactively, that he believes in naam-dhrir, that he believes that keskee is a kakaar and that raagmala IS gurbaaNee - excellent! this means he is thinking for himself, looking into it for himself and treating these issues with the importance they deserve - not becoming some sort of 'un-questioning gang-member' which sadly a lot of youth, especially so-called 'jatha' and 'taksalee' youth, have become.

although i humbly believe that the below panktee is referring, generally speaking, to the way gursikhs approach gurmat and their bhagtee, the first part also has some relevance given what we are talking about:

[gurbanee]riKriKcrnDryvIcwrI ]
duibDwCoifBeyinrMkwrI ][/gurbanee]

rakh rakh charan dhharae veechaaree ||
dhubidhhaa shhodd bheae nira(n)kaaree || (pad-ched according to STTM)

After CAREFUL DELIBERATION, the thoughtful person takes a step.
Forsaking duality, he becomes a devotee of the Formless Lord.

maharaaj jee sadae kirpa karae.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

atma singh ji that was a brilliant post, this is the way to tackle these issues on a personal level.

thanks for sharing that jasdeep singh

There are still singhs alive from the taksal side that were present.

sant kartaar singh was present, baba thakur singh was there and 2 other singhs.

the whole episode is written in giani pritam singhs book on sant gurbachan singh jees jeevan, and also in sant kartaar singhs jeevani.

could you also put down which other jatha singhs were present, as we know who was present from the taksal.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Bhai Nirajan Singh jio,

Seems like this person Jasdeep is a part of splitter group. His post clearly indicates this from the flaws he left in the story and pretends to be Jatha singh.

First he wrote Fateh in larrivaar "VAHEGUROOJEEKAAKHALSA VAHEGUROOJEEKEEFATEH!" to give the some jatha impression.

Second he claimed to be a member Of Akhand Kirtani Jatha Quote ”I am a member of Akhand kirtani jatha so is my grandad & dad".
If he is a member then does he have the membership number and date he registered his membership or any slip. Jasdeep jio could you post that here?

Third he fabricated for Grand dad, which mean he is merely a kid and got this grand pa story from Bhai Veer Singh Jee idea.

Fourth the big flaw he made is about Bhai Sahib's son Quote” some of the singhs that were present are still alive and so is bhai sahib jis son they can tell you if its true too"
This guy does not know that Bhai Sahib's son is not alive. So this claim itself tells the conspiracy of whole story.

Fifth he claims that quote "even in india now akhand kirtani jatha singhs do akhand paath samaptee with raagmala".
Which indicates this guy is living abroad and without having any first hand concrete information he made up this based on hear say.

Sixth he talks about his grand dad's opinion about this thread. Reading this thread any one who can read plain English can tell who is on Krodh? The fake story makers or ones who are asking the evidence.

Seventh Quote "singho bhai sahib vangu nimrata vich rehio bhai sahib ji ne inee charcha raag mala barey nahee kitee phir asi hun kyo shuru ho geye? apney nitneym badhawo, simran badhawo is cheeza wich bhai sahib ji khush hundey yaa."
Again this guy know nothing about Jatha but showed his Dera influence "bhai sahib ji khush hundey yaa"

Eigth Quote "my views changed alot too after finding out what my grandad said to me as i also believed bhai sahib ji cud not hav admitted to it.."
Here comes the climax of story as Bhai Veer Singh Jee style on Raagmala.

Fabrication of this story is even worst than the first one on website. By seeing these stories we can bet the fabrication of next story is under way and this time may be on the name of some one from Bhai Sahib‘s family. What a low level an organization can go to prove a baseless point.

Guru Mehar Karay

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

KhalsaSpirit Jio,

Jasdeep's post is obviously a hoax like the Taksal web site's story on Bhai Randhir Singh Ji.

First of all, if his grandfather has been reading Ragmala all this time, why didn't Jasdeep know about it before ? If he know knew about then why was he shocked just now ? Obviously his grandpapa must have told his dad also, after all it has been over 45 years when this all occurred. So, why all the shock in his family now.

Anyways, it is just too convenient to name people who are no longer alive (Balbir Singh, Baba Thakur Singh, Sant Kartar Singh, etc)

I am still waiting for the names of currently alive Taksali and Jatha Singhs, so far I have not soon seen any.

Baba Gurbachan Singh and Baba Kartar Singh were great writers and orators, why didn't they ever say a word about this or anything against Bhai Randhir Singh.

Take a look at how much respect Baba Gurbachan Singh had for Bhai Sahib Ji, this is what he writes in the book "Sri Gurmukh Parkash" about Bhai Sahib Ji in prose.

(Published by Baba Mohan Singh Ji of Bhinderkalan- 1984 by Locket Printers Amritsar)

vaheguroojeekakhalsa,vaheguroojeekeefateh!

veer 'khalistan zindabad' jee

you wrote:

"...and 2 other singhs. the whole episode is written in giani pritam singhs book on sant gurbachan singh jees jeevan, and also in sant kartaar singhs jeevani."

let's treat this logically; we need first-hand evidence to really make this story stick. anything short of this will mean that there will always be doubts. we need to accept this point firmly.

so with this in mind, let’s name these two other singh jees and the singh jees from taksaal who are still alive and were present there; if they wish to keep anonymous please email me their details and I will promise to keep their names gupt. if you can do this, i will personally take the seva of contacting them and getting them to give their account and would make audio recordings (of course, keeping anonymity) for the benefit of the sangat. however, please remember that anonymity will mean that their ‘accounts’ could be mistrusted by the sangat - singhs should stand by the truth, however uncomfortable it may make them feel.

also, baba thakur singh jee and baba kartaar singh jee have both left their mortal frames so cannot be relied upon to give any 'first-hand' evidence. sadly, we have to rule them out of our investigation as any kind of first hand witnesses - their personal testimonies would have put a line under this issue as i could never believe that they would intentionally lie about this given their jeevans.

secondly, the writer of baba gurbachan singh jee's jeevan would need to be personally questioned if he were alive which i doubt and the same goes for the person who wrote baba kartaar singh jee's jeevan. we would have to then ask them if they were first-hand witnesses and if they were not, how did they learn of this incident and from who - these people would need to be contacted and so on and so forth. writing something in a book does not necessarily make it truthful.

until this happens, as a minimum, these accounts are completely unsubstantiated and should be treated as such.

if someone argues that bhai sahib has not written any anti-raagmala statements in his many writings and so this proves he was pro-raagmala, then this is also pure conjecture. bhai sahib obviously felt that people need to come to their own conclusions regarding such matters but certainly shared his opinions when requested. this is evident because those close to him and those of the jatha during those days certainly knew his stand and themselves did not read or promote the reading of raagmala.

i personally won't be contributing to this thread anymore until 'jasdeep', 'khalistan zindabaad' or anyone else provides clear first-hand details regarding 'bhai sahib being pro-raagmala' BACKED-UP BY TESTABLE EVIDENCE. until then, the term 'fairy-tales' springs to mind...

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

Bhai Sahib was one of the best sikhs ever to come to earth.Even if i take crore human births, i cant even think of becoming a kuttaa of Bhai Sahib. Bhai Sahib was a MAN of his word. His entire life demonstrates this. He dint consider raagmala to be Gurbani. And taksal, well.. i have great respect for Baba Jarnail Singh Jee Bhindrawale and some other previous jathedaars of taksaal but after 84, the taksal has got completely infiltrated and has badly degenerated.Before getting pesh, i read their book on nitnem, well they had given so many complex meanings and then I had the impression wow. how much giaaan they have but now i have realized that though some meanings were accurate but many meanings were just goodie goodie phurrnaas of mind.I guess same is being done to raagamala to prove it to be gurbani. What Bhai Sahib wrote, he either saw it or heard it from Waheguru Jee.
and I am not some akj-ite infact I have quite a few problems with the present akj but i have TREMENDOUS TREMENDOUS respect for Bhai sahib Randhir Singh Jee.

Veer Naranjan Singh jeeo,

Thank you so much for sharing Sant Gurbachan Singh jee's poem. I have been long thinking of reading this book but never got a chance to do so.

Indeed Singhs of that time had so much pyaar for each other.

Kulbir Singh

when required and when satguru jee wishes all details will be revealed, untill then. peace. ps the 2 singhs are still alive.

Growing up, I have seen many gursikhs speak to other people who try to push their views on them or talk about topics they don't with to discuss. The gursikhs answer is most often "Sat Bachan". Beyond that they remain silent.

From what I have read on both sides, perhaps Bhai Sahib just said sat bachan and left it at that as he didn't want to discuss a useless topic.

If both sides can agree that he said that, there is no argument. Jatha people will see it for what it is, and those who wish to be delusional can see it as a victory for pro-raag mala.