vahegurujeekakhalsa vahegurujeekeefateh!

1. Are Naam and Bani equal?
2. Is it possible to be given Naam by Maharaaj, even if you are not amritdhari?
3. Could someone give me a reference to a Puraatan source which states that the technique for doing abhiyaas can only be administered by the Panj?
4. If someone went to an Amrit Sanchaar where they do not give the technique for abhiyaas, is it still possible for this person to do simran?
5. Is reciting the Mool Mantar a form of simran? (Providing the person is concentrating fully)

sorry for so many questions which may seem pointless or narrow minded.
vahegurujeekakhalsa vahegurujeekeefateh!!

forgive me, another question has just come to mind.

6. Is it possible to drink AmritRas through Gur Shabad without being amritdhari?

thankyou

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1. Are Naam and Bani equal?
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Naam and Baani are made of same material i.e. amrit. Both are full of Amrit but they are subtly different. Gurbani is full of Naam as written in Mundawani:

Thaal vich tinn vastuu paiyo, Satt Santokh Vichaaro||
Amrit Naam Thakur ka paiyo, Jis ka sabhas Adhaaro||

In the thaal of Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee (Gurbani) there is Amrit Naam all over.

There is another pankiti:

Gurbani vartee jagg antar, iss baani tey Har Naam paaindaa||
(Gurbani pervades all over in this world and by through this Baani or by indulging in Baani, one obtains Naam Rass). Of course this is possible only if one has obtained Naam from Guru Sahib. Constant paath of Gurbani will drive a person to receive Naam from Guru Sahib and then derive Rass from it.


In order to receive full benefit of Naam, one must be an avid paathi of Gurbani.

In short, Naam and Gurbani are different and both need to be done in order to achieve the aim of this life i.e. meeting Vaheguru. There are pankitis as the above stated pankitis that clearly state both Naam and Gurbani in the same pankiti proving that Naam and Gurbani are not the same thing.



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2. Is it possible to be given Naam by Maharaaj, even if you are not amritdhari?
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Guru Sahib themselves have made this rule of giving Naam through Punj Pyaray and it is understood that Guru Sahib follows their own rules. Naam is received when one gives one’s head to Guru Sahib and Naam is given only after one drinks Amrit of Khanda Baata.

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3. Could someone give me a reference to a Puraatan source which states that the technique for doing abhiyaas can only be administered by the Panj?
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I believe that Guru Sahib alone can give you Naam and when giving Naam, it logically makes sense that Guru Sahib would teach you how to japp it too. What would be the point of giving you Naam but not the technique of how to japp it? If you believe that Naam is given by only Guru Sahib then it logically follows that Naam technique too is given by Guru Sahib. Now a days, all this is accomplished by Guru Sahib through Punj Pyaray.

If someone could provide a proof from Rehitnamay or other proof from puratan source, it would be great.


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4. If someone went to an Amrit Sanchaar where they do not give the technique for abhiyaas, is it still possible for this person to do simran?
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I believe so but it would be a rare case. This is my personal belief.

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5. Is reciting the Mool Mantar a form of simran? (Providing the person is concentrating fully)
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Simran means to remember and doing Mool Mantr is remembering the qualities of Vaheguru. So it is a form of simran but it’s not a form of Naam Japna. Naam Japna is chanting or reciting of Gurmantr only.


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6. Is it possible to drink AmritRas through Gur Shabad without being amritdhari?
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If you don’t have milk, how can you get butter. If you don’t have Naam, how can you get Amrit rass.

Daas,
Kulbir Singh

regarding number 3. you can only be given gurmantr by the punj, but you can be taught how to do simran, including the correct technique of abhyiaas, from mahapurkhs. there are in fact different ways of doing simran, and when a person reaches a higher stages they may be taught different methods by mahapurkhs.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Khalsa jio,

Quote "regarding number 3. you can only be given gurmantr by the punj, but you can be taught how to do simran, including the correct technique of abhyiaas, from mahapurkhs. there are in fact different ways of doing simran, and when a person reaches a higher stages they may be taught different methods by mahapurkhs."

First time heard that any single person can give the naam abiyass tehniques with different stages. Which means the Gurmantar given by the Panj Piayre is just a dummy word and still you need some one else to drill the naam. Wah Wah kiya khoob kahee. Xylitol jio, your meaning seems undermining the authority of Panj Piyare. As Bhai Kulbir Singh ji mentioned it only Guru Sahib who can give Gurmantar and technique. In deh (body) roop they had given them self and now it is through Panj Payare in the presence of Guru Sahib (larreevaar Saroop). No one else has the authority over it.

Guru Mehar karay

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Bhai Sahib Kulbir Singh jee this gursikhs said:

regarding number 3. you can only be given gurmantr by the punj, but you can be taught how to do simran, including the correct technique of abhyiaas, from mahapurkhs. there are in fact different ways of doing simran, and when a person reaches a higher stages they may be taught different methods by mahapurkhs.

What was Bhai Sahib Randhir Singhs views on this, can mahapurks teach u different ways of doing simran and different meothods??

Also did Bhai Randhir Singh teach his gursikhs on differnet meothods of doing naam abyiaas or was the gurmanter taught in the amrit sanchar the only moethod practiced by the gursikhs??

"regarding number 3. you can only be given gurmantr by the punj, but you can be taught how to do simran, including the correct technique of abhyiaas, from mahapurkhs. there are in fact different ways of doing simran, and when a person reaches a higher stages they may be taught different methods by mahapurkhs."

Veerjee, you are contradicting yourself:
"you can only be given gurmantr by the punj" - correct
"but you can be taught how to do simran, including the correct technique of abhyiaas" - incorrect

As you said in your first point, you can be given gurmantr by punj pyaare. They are the ones at that moment who administer the amrit sanchaar and are guru roop. And you can only be given naam drirh from guru saaheb. Gur poorae drireo har naam| and Satgur sikh kao naam dhan dae|

........

"Bhai Gurmukh Singh of Punjab University published a book "Bhai Jaita Ji Tay Rachna" in which he gives references to hand written accounts. Bhai Jaita Ji was a Sikh of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji and brought Guru Sahib's Sees to Anandpur Sahib. Later he took Amrit in 1699 and became Bhai Jeevan Singh. He wrote down what he witnessed and the hand written account now resides in Faridkot.

First, Guru Sahib called five heads, took them inside and when brought them outside, they were dressed and were wearing kakkars:


The amrit was then prepared:


After five Banis were recited, Amrit was put in eyes and kes.



"The original is said to have been in Faridkot. I don't have the book so I don't know more details. Bhatt Vahis that have been published were not written but translated by Saroop Singh in 1790. Sikh review has made some false assumptions regarding Bhatt Vahis but I have stated before that not everything is acceptable when we evaluate it with Gurbani. There are many Bhatt Vahis such as Thaynesar Pargana, Talwanda etc. Anyways, here are some more quotes:

Guru Sahib brought five Sikhs outside and everyone was surprised at how they became alive. Last line says: There is no end to Guru's miracles.



Here is the account of how Amrit was prepared."





There are many variations and many historians Sikh and Muslim who have written about the account of Vaisaakhee, Anandpur Saaheb, 1699 differently. In reality, ONLY guru saaheb knows what EXACTLY happened, but these references and rehatnaame help us understand and maintain similar protocols. Like one of the veerjee's mentioned, 'rehat pyaaree mujh ko sikh pyaaraa nahe' so the more rehat we keep the better.

Bhul chuk muaaf karnee.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2007 11:05AM by admin.

as I've clearly stated above, Amrit and Gurmantr can only be given by the Guru. You don't need someone else to 'drill the naam', nor did I say that.
But there are techniques of naam abhiyaas that vary with different spriitual levels, and these can be learned from mahapurkhs. This is a fact and not an opinion. Unfortunately, it seems that people wish to twist my words out of context and force their own limited understanding of Gurmat as being the only proper one.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Khalsa jio,

There was a very renowned GurSikh also called by some as Brahamgaini or Mahapurakh. At that time he was close to jatha Singhs and seeing the avastha of Singhs especially youngsters sitting all-night in the Reinsabais he was very impressed. One day he asked a Singh of Jatha (who also some time did seva in Panj) that how to recite the Gurmantar the way Jatha do. This Singh humbly told him that you are such a great reader of Gurbani and do lot of paath why you need this then he replied that to further my spiritualism (atmic russ) then this Singh advise him to do Pesh to Panj only they will give you that. Then he replied that due to certain reasons he can not do that.

So we have no idea that to whom we still love as a great Gursikh has desire of Naam japp even renowened as a Mahapurakh but on the other hand heard this new story of different techniques thing of Mahapurakhs by someone.

Guru Mehar Karay Sanu ve Naam da jag lag javay

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

What you're doing is called the straw man technique. You defeat a point I didn't make and than pretend to have defeated the point that I did make.
baba Jualla Singh ji Harkhowalwaley would give different techniques of simran to advanced seekers. This is written in 'Jivan Karnae'. Once again, I emphasize that it's for very advanced seekers, and that Amrit and Gurmantr from punj is required.

There is only one technique of japping Naam. The baani (voice) may change from Baikhree to Madham and from Madham to Para and Pasanti but the technique stays the same.

As for Sant Mahapurakh Harkhowal walay, we can't know for sure what they did. The followers of Sants Mahapurakhs misinterpret a lot of things about them. Once a Singh met Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh and at introduction he told Bhai Sahib that he had taken amrit from him. Bhai Sahib was upset at him and asked him to retract his statement. He then said that he had actually taken amrit from his Jatha. Again Bhai Sahib said that he was wrong in saying so since he had no jatha. He told him that Amrit is taken from Punj Pyare and not from one person. Quoting this story Bhai Sahib said that who knows what kind of talk such ignorant people would be talking about him.

Coming back to Sant jee, I don't think he gave out the technique, probably just answered the advanced questions of seekers and discussed Naam avasthas. People might have interpreted that as giving Naam techniques.

Kulbir Singh

I think the issue here is that when I say giving technique of Naam simran, you guys are interpreting that as being one and the same as giving Gurmantr. This is not at all what I'm saying. And he did teach advanced techniques of japping naam to the seeker, although I don't doubt that the seeker had been given Gurmantr from the punj. Gurmantr is not a technique, but an actual spiritual thing that is given. Although the punj are also supposed to teach technique of japping naam. the book is written by Baba Jagjit Singh ji so there can be no doubt that it is accurate. The sikh referred to is his father.