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Book Review: Guru Nanak Dev jee by Dr Trilochan Singh
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: November 06, 2009 05:55PM

At recently passed Gurpurab of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee, I thought of reading Maharaj jee’s Janam sakhi. Numerous books have been written on Guru Sahib’s human life but one that stands out is the one written by Dr Trilochan Singh, who also translated Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee’s autobiography from Punjabi to English. Dr Sahib wasa very traditionalist scholar who strongly defended the Sikh traditions while writing using modern scientific techniques.

It was very refreshing to read such well researched and detailed account of Guru Sahib’s life. The writer has done a lot of hard work writing this book and the best part is that the writer has kept a very traditionalist view. Many times authors tend to write controversial stuff so as to attract publicity. Dr Sahib has very diligently defended the Janam Sakhis including the Bhai Bala wali Janam Sakhi. Dr Sahib has written against the controversy started by Professor Gurmukh Singh and augmented by Sardar Karam Singh Historian.

What surprised me was that Dr Sahib has strongly come out in defense of Guru Sahib’s Gurpurab being on Katak Pooranmashi as opposed to 3 Vaisaakh pointed out by Prof Gurmukh Singh, Sardar Karam Singh and many modern historians.

About Bhai Bala wali Janamsakhi, Dr Sahib has written that the Janamsakhi Karam Singh Historian has been referring from in his book “Katak ke Vaisaakh” is the doctored version of this Janamsakhi where as there are older versions that are much pure. He says that based on a doctored version of this Janamsakhi it is not wise to condemn the whole Janamsakhi and to even go as far as saying that Bhai Bala never existed. Karam Singh writes that the name of Bhai Bala does not appear in any other Janamsakhi but Dr Trilochan Singh writes that Bhai Bala’s name appears in Bhai Mani Singh janamsakhi many times. Karam Singh writes that Bhai Bala’s name is not there in the Bhai Gurdas jee’s list of first Guru Sahib’s Sikhs but Dr Sahib says that even Bhai Lalo jee’s name is not there. In any case, it was an interesting read.

I have always been thinking that Brahmgyani Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee has never written against Katak Pooranmashi Gurpurab of Guru Sahib and not only that but they also experienced spiritual bliss during this Gurpurab as is evident by poems written by him on this day. They used to celebrate this day as the authentic day of Guru Sahib's Gurpurab. It is possible that the scholars have it wrong when they say that the actual Gurpurab is in Vaisaakh.

Another very interesting point that is exclusive to this book only is the new historical research showing that Guru Sahib met Chaitaniya Mahaprabhu at Jagannath Puri. About 22 years ago, I along with my friends was visiting the Central Islands near Toronto and there we started conversing with the Hare Krishna people. One of them very eagerly told me that Guru Nanak Dev jee and Chaitaniya Mahaprabhu met at Jagannath Puri. He further told me that Chataniya Mahaprabhu entered trance after meeting Guru Sahib and stayed like that for many days. In trance he danced too for some time and then entered Samadhi. I did not believe what he was saying because we don’t have any such account in our books. Now Dr Trilochan Singh has actually found documents written in the language of Orissa that prove that this meeting actually took place. It also talks about how many prominent disciples of Chataniya became earnest followers of Guru Sahib.

Bhai Gurdas jee has written that Satguru jee did parchar of Satnam in all 9 continents of Earth. Since Guru Sahib is the Avatar and king of Kalyug, they had to go to all parts of Earth. If they had stayed limited to just Punjab, then how could they be called Jagat Guru? No other prophet of other religions can be called Jagat Guru because they stayed within their geographical boundaries. Only Guru Nanak Dev jee is the Jagat Guru, who preached Satnam in the whole world.

Kulbir Singh

 



Re: Book Review: Guru Nanak Dev jee by Dr Trilochan Singh
Posted by: singh05 (IP Logged)
Date: November 07, 2009 11:27AM

Is this book available at Saucha Sauda?

 



Re: Book Review: Guru Nanak Dev jee by Dr Trilochan Singh
Posted by: Sukhdeep SIngh (IP Logged)
Date: November 08, 2009 02:45PM

kulbir singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Bhai Gurdas jee has written that Satguru jee did
> parchar of Satnam in all 9 continents of Earth.
> Since Guru Sahib is the Avatar and king of Kalyug,
> they had to go to all parts of Earth. If they had
> stayed limited to just Punjab, then how could they
> be called Jagat Guru? No other prophet of other
> religions can be called Jagat Guru because they
> stayed within their geographical boundaries. Only
> Guru Nanak Dev jee is the Jagat Guru, who preached
> Satnam in the whole world.
>
> Kulbir Singh



Bhai Sahib, is it possible that Bhai Gurdas Ji's pangti that mentions liberating the whole world is referring to the future instead of the past?

I have no doubt in Guru Jis immense power. Pehli PaatShah could have easily been in 1000 places in a single moment thus it would be easy for him to spread Sikhi across the world in less then 100 years. But I believe that GUru Ji purposely did not do this if GUru Ji went to these places then traces of SIkhi would still be present in these places, because BHai GUrdas Ji mentions wherever GUru Sahib went a Gurdwara was built. But we only find ancient Gurdwaras in places like Iraq, Afghanistan,etc but we dont find ancient Gurdwaras in Latin America, North America, or Europe.

So it is possilbe Bhai Sahib is making a prediction of the future. He is referring to GUru Jis existing saroop ( the khalsa and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) will spread truth and liberate the whole globe. Guru Sahib would often use his Gursikhs to do parchar and spread SIkhi. The masand system is an example.

Bhai Sahib had many predictions in his writings. He mentions the panj pyaarey, and the coming of Dasmesh Pita Ji. To me it seems like this particular pangti is referring less to the historical GUru Ji and instead mentioning and praising the ever-existing and present Guru Ji which is not an historical figure unlike previous messiahs like Muhammad, Jesusm Moses, Buddha,etc?

 



Re: Book Review: Guru Nanak Dev jee by Dr Trilochan Singh
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: November 09, 2009 08:07AM

Sukhdeep Singh jeeo,

While I agree that there are predictions about Khalsa ruling the whole world and spreading the message of true Naam throughout the world, the reference of Bhai Gurdas jee seems to be talking about the past as opposed to the future. The pankiti has been taken from Vaar 1 and pauri 27:

ਬਾਬੇ ਤਾਰੇ ਚਾਰਿ ਚਕਿ ਨਉਖੰਡਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੀ ਸਚਾ ਢੋਆ॥

The verbs ਤਾਰੇ and ਢੋਆ are stating the past and not the future.

As for finding any Gurdwara or other proof in all places Guru Sahib went to, it is not always possible. Siri Guru jee went to Sri Lanka and liberated Raja Shivnabh Singh and countless other people of that time but today we have can't find any tangible proof of this visit, nor are any generations of Sikhs left to prove that Guru jee went there. But we know Guru Sahib went there. In some places where the local sangat was able to keep connection with the subsequent Guru Sahibaan, the sangat remained till even Guru Gobind Singh jee e.g. Dhaka (Bangladesh) but at most other places the connection did not stay on till next generations. From this we can't deduce that Guru Sahib never went there.

I believe the statement coming from Brahmgyani Bhai Gurdas jee has to be true. Above this, Siri Guru Arjun Dev jee themselves instructed to Bhai Sahib to write a Vaar on the life of Siri Nanak Dev jee and then blessed Bhai Sahib for carrying out the Hukam. Everything written in this Vaar is Sach Sach.

Kulbir Singh

 



Re: Book Review: Guru Nanak Dev jee by Dr Trilochan Singh
Posted by: ਸਿੰਘ (IP Logged)
Date: November 09, 2009 09:43AM

It’s nice to see you posting again Kulbir Singh. I would have hoped to say a few words in agreement as a welcome back gesture. However due to the nature of the content of your post I am going to disagree on a few points, I’m sure there are a lot more things we agree on than disagree so I hope you don't mind. Maybe its these kinds of post where we can learn a little from each other.

First of all I don’t think the differing views on the issue of Katik pooranmashi can be resolved by reading one individual’s view on the subject. It’s not as simple as that. You have to look at all the different sources and only then can you come to some sort of conclusion.

Let me state that I am not sure which date is correct but I have an issue with people giving more weight to one historical document and dismissing others. I don’t believe that the Bala Janamsaki should be dismissed in its entirety either.

For a long time the Bala JanamSaki was believed to be the oldest written testimony of the life of Sree Guru Nanak Dev Jee. This belief has been challenged by the nature of its language and some of its content. Most of the Janamsaki’s are similar and seem to have a common source it even looks like the Bala Janamsaki has it roots from this source too.

Just to mention briefly the following are some of the Historical writings that claim the 3rd Vasaikh to be the correct date

Puratan Janamsakhi of 1634
Gausht Guru Baba Nanak Dev Jee Kee – 1640
Memha Prakash(Varthik) -
Memha Prakash(Bava Saroop Chand Bhala) -
Bhai Mani Singh Vali Janamsaki
Veheroval Vali Janamsaki
Guru Nanak Bans Prakash – Sukhvasi Ram
Kaulbrak Vali Janamsaki
Hafzabhad Vali Janamsaki
Veleth Vali Janamsaki (India Office Library in London) - 1588
Janamsaki at Khalsa College Amritsar
Janamsaki at Sikh Reference Library Amritsar
Janamsaki at Central Public Library Patiala

The Janamsaki of Bhai Mani Singh jee is worth mentioning because it is stated that he wrote this because there were a lot of misinterpreted material on the life of Guru Nanak Dev Jee so he wanted to write an accurate account.

The Historical writings that state Katik pooranmashi as the date all point to the Bhai Bala’s Janamsaki, most famous of these are Gurpratap Suraj Granth written in 1843.
Buteh Shah also endorsed the katik date in his Tavarikh-i-Punjab but it was because of Buteh Shah that Ratan Singh Bhangoo thought the need to write Pracheen Panth Prakash. Kesar Singh Chiber in BansavaleeNama also mentions Katik but he is honest and says this is what he has heard.

I think Bhai Kulbir Singh can maybe add to this list as those are the only sources that I have read. I don’t know what else Dr Trilochan Singh has mentioned.


I don’t think Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh should be brought into this debate. People have always tried to misinterpret Bhai Sahib's actions on many issues. I think we should only quote from what he has written rather than what we think he must have thought. From what I know I don’t think he has ever written what he thinks is the correct date.

Just because they used to have keertan on the date in Katik does not prove anything. I myself go to keertan darbars at this time and there is alot of anand to be had. I mean who will not get anand from hearing keertan related to Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Jee, but for you to then decide that I believe this is the correct date is a long shot.

I know previously you were in favour of the Nanakshahi Calendar and you were fully aware that programs at the time of Bhai Sahib were done according to the Bikrami calendar but the date they had their keetan darbars was not an issue then so why would it be an issue now. Have your views changed on the Nanakshahi calendar as well?

If you are a poojaree of Akaal then time and dates don’t really mean much. Guru Nanak Dev Jee was never bound to any time. This is purely an academic issue not a spiritual one.

Again I would like to stress that I am not stating one is right and the other is wrong all I’m saying is it not as simple as we think.

 



Re: Book Review: Guru Nanak Dev jee by Dr Trilochan Singh
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: November 09, 2009 03:03PM

Singh jee,

Thanks for welcoming me back but I never left the message board. Just because I did not post for sometime does not mean that I had left the message board. I write when I am inspired to write and don’t write when I am not feeling like writing.

I did not write anywhere that I have formed a firm opinion (even though I have now formed an opinion) about the Gurpurab date of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee. Previously, I had mostly read about the Visaakh date being the authentic one but it was interesting to read the other side. Vichaars don’t always stay the same and in the light of new facts, there is nothing wrong in changing your vichaars. If there are new proofs going in the favour of Kattak Pooranmashi Gurpurab, there is nothing wrong in accepting these truths and vice versa.

-----------
I don’t think Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh should be brought into this debate. People have always tried to misinterpret Bhai Sahib's actions on many issues. I think we should only quote from what he has written rather than what we think he must have thought. From what I know I don’t think he has ever written what he thinks is the correct date.
---------------

Bhai Sahib’s opinion matters a lot to me and I think if he used to celebrate the Gurpurab so fervently, on Katak Pooranmashi, it means he used to believe this to be the correct date. Bhai Sahib knew the vichaars of Professor Gurmukh Singh and Karam Singh Historian and still celebrated the Gurpurab on this date. This tells us that he believed Katak Pooranmashi to be the correct date.

On the date of Katak Pooranmashi in 1934 (21 November), Bhai Sahib was in deep ecstasy due to Guru Sahib Gurpurab. He wrote a beautiful poem and he clearly writes this to be the Gurpurab date of Guru Sahib:

ਸੋਹਿਲੜੇ ਗਾਏ ਅਨਹਦ ਬੇਨ ਵਾਏ,
ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਪੁਰਬ ਮਨਾਏ ਹੈ।
ਕੀਰਤਨ ਕਰਿ ਗੁਰਪੁਰਬ ਮਨਾਏ ਘਰਿ,
ਪਾਵਨ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਆਜ ਮੋਰੇ ਆਏ ਹੈਂ

Notice that this poem uses the asthaayee of Bhai Gurdas jee’s kabit. For details refer to Bhai Sahib’s book Darshan Jhalkan. There are several poems dedicated to Guru Nanak Dev jee and written on Katak Pooranmashi. If Bhai Sahib believed Vaisakh sudi 3 to be the Gurpurab, they would have written something on that day as they would have felt it that way. But Bhai Sahib was divinely inspired to write these poems only on Gurpurabs. On the Gurpurab of Siri Dasmesh jee, he wrote several poems on one day.

Now here are some proofs presented by Dr Trilochan Singh in favour of Katak Pooranmashi:

1) The greatest proof of Katak Pooranmashi is the writing of Bhai Gurdas jee in Kabit Savaiya 345:

ਕਾਰਤਕ ਮਾਸ ਰੁਤਿ ਸਰਤ ਪੂਰਨਮਾਸ਼ੀ,
ਆਠ ਜਾਮ ਸਾਠ ਘੜੀ ਆਜ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਾਰੀ ਹੈ।
ਅਉਸਰ ਅਭੀਚ ਬਹੁ ਨਾਇਕ ਕੀ ਨਾਇਕਾ,
ਰੂਪ ਗੁਣ ਜੋਬਨ ਸਿੰਗਾਰ ਅਧਿਕਾਰੀ ਹੈ।
ਚਾਤਰ ਚਤਰ ਪਾਠ, ਸੇਵਕ ਸਹੇਲੀ ਸਾਠ,
ਸੰਪਦਾ ਸਮਗਰੀ ਸੁਖ ਸਹਿਜ ਸੰਚਾਰੀ ਹੈ।
ਸੁੰਦਰ ਮੰਦਰ ਸੁਭ ਲਗਨ ਸੰਜੋਗ ਭੋਗ
ਜੀਵਨ ਜਨਮ ਧੰਨ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮ ਪਿਆਰੀ ਹੈ।

2) Dr Sahib writes that during the times of Guru Sahibaan, this Gurpurab was indeed celebrated on Katak Pooranmashi. He quotes from the ‘Sakhi Pothi’ of time of Bhai Mani Singh jee where the following words appear with context of Siri Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib jee:

ਦੀਵਾਲੀ ਕਾ ਮੇਲਾ ਆਇਆ, ਸੰਗਤਾਂ ਆਈਆਂ। ਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਬਚਨ ਕੀਤਾ ਪੰਦਰਾਂ ਦਿਨ ਇਥੇ ਹੋਰ ਰਹਿਣਾ ਹੈ। ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਪੂਰਣਿਮਾਂ ਕਾ ਪੁਰਬ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਚੜ੍ਹਾਂਗੇ। ਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਪੁਰਬ ਹੈ, ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦ ਕਰੋ, ਤਸਮਈ ਵੀ ਤੇ ਕੜਾਹ ਵੀ। ਹੋਰ ਪੂਰੀ ਕਚਉਰੀ ਵੀ। ਦਿਨ ਚੜ੍ਹਦੇ ਨੂੰ ਪੰਗਤਾਂ ਬਿਠਾ ਦਿਤੀਆਂ। ਸਿਖ, ਸਾਧ, ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ, ਫਕੀਰ ਸਭਨਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ। ਪੂਰਣਿਮਾਂ ਦਾ ਜਗ ਪੂਰਾ ਹੋਇਆ।

3) The Granth of Baba Binod Singh who was from the family lineage of Siri Guru Angad Dev jee and who was one of the 5 Singhs who were to lead Baba Banda Singh Bahadur, states that the date is Katak Pooranmashi:

ਉਰਜ ਮਾਸ ਕੀ ਪੂਰਨਮਾਸ਼ੀ।
ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤ ਸੀ ਜੌਨ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ਼ੀ।
ਸੰਮਤ ਨੌ ਖਟ ਸਹਿਸ ਛਬੀਸਾ।
ਭੈ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਪ੍ਰਗਟੇ ਜਗਦੀਸ਼ਾ।

4) Kesar Singh Chhiber in 1780 wrote that ਸੰਮਤ 1526 ਭਏ। ਤਬ ਬਾਬਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜਨਮ ਲਏ। ਮਹਾਂ ਕਾਰਤਕ ਦਿਨ ਚਾਰ। ਪੁੰਨਿਆ ਰਾਤ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਲੀਨਾ ਅਵਤਾਰ।


Besides this Cunningham, Mahakavi Santokh Singh, Giani Gian Singh and many others have written Katak Pooranmashi as Guru Sahib’s Gurpurab.

I think by far the best proof of this is from the Bhatt Vahees. Please refer to sakhi 24th of Bhat Vahees Guru kiyaan Sakhiyaan. The Bhatts write ਮਾਤਾ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਾ ਪਿਤਾ ਕਾਲੂ ਜੀ ਕੇ ਘਰ ਬੇਦੀ ਬੰਸ ਮੇ ਸੰ:1526 ਮੈ ਕਾਤਕ ਸੁਦੀ ਪੁਨਯਾ ਕਾਤਕਗਤੇ ਤੇਰਾ ਗੁਰਵਾਰ ਅਧੀ ਰਾਤ ਕੋ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਹੂਆ….।

Regarding the Puratan Janamsakhi, the date of 1634 is debated by many scholars and they believe it to be a composition of after Siri Dasmesh jee. Regarding Bhai Mani Singh Janamsakhi, Dr Trilochan Singh has written in detail how the wrong date appeared in it and how some old versions of this sakhi contain the correct date of Katak Pooranmashi. I think you should read up this book yourself and then form an opinion.

-------------------
I know previously you were in favour of the Nanakshahi Calendar and you were fully aware that programs at the time of Bhai Sahib were done according to the Bikrami calendar but the date they had their keetan darbars was not an issue then so why would it be an issue now. Have your views changed on the Nanakshahi calendar as well?
-----------------

My views on the Nanakshahi calendar stay unchanged and I believe it was a good move to move from semi-solar system of Bikrami calendar to a more accurate Nanakshahi calendar. Subscribing to a more accurate calendar and questioning some scholars views on totally different date of Guru Nanak Dev jee’s Gurpurab are two different things.


--------------
If you are a poojaree of Akaal then time and dates don’t really mean much. Guru Nanak Dev Jee was never bound to any time. This is purely an academic issue not a spiritual one.
---------------

As far as I know, the dates of Gurpurabs do matter because as per Bhai Gurdas jee too, Sikhs have been celebrating the Gurpurabs and Gurpurabs are celebrated based on some time system. Being a poojari of Akal (Vaheguru on whom Kaal i.e. time does not make any effect, i.e. he is beyond time) does not mean one should not celebrate Gurpurabs. It is part of Gurmat Bibek to celebrate Gurpurabs and go to places where Guru Sahib have been to (darshan of Gurdwara Sahibaan), as written by Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee.

I appreciate you bringing some thought to this topic through your post. By doing Gurmat Vichaar alone we can learn.

I should admit that previously I thought that 3 Sudi Visaakhi was the correct date of celebration of Guru Sahib’s Gurpurab and for this reason every year at Katak Pooranmashi Gurpurab my spirits used to dampen a bit because there was a dubidha in my mind about the accuracy of this Gurpurab. By Sachay Patshah jee’s kirpa, this year was special and I had a special Anand celebrating Guru Sahib’s Gurpurab. The dubidha vanished.

Only Guru Sahib knows the ultimate truth. We can only conjecture.

Kulbir Singh

 



Re: Book Review: Guru Nanak Dev jee by Dr Trilochan Singh
Posted by: ਸਿੰਘ (IP Logged)
Date: November 10, 2009 10:21AM

Veer Kulbir Singh jee, thanks for replying I always enjoy reading your posts even when I am in disagreement. First of all veer jee I never said you left the forum only that it was nice to see you posting/writing again.

I’ m not going to take this debate any further as its hard to argue from a corner where your own views are not firm. It only becomes a debate for debate sake and nothing is resolved, its just fuel for haume.

I only wanted to point out that things are not a simple as we think. I know now from what you have written that you now have a firm believe due to the new evidence you have read.

However what ever you have pointed out is no new discovery. The material you have pointed out has been around awhile the only one that was new to me was the Granth of Baba Binod Singh. Not many people have mentioned this Granth?

You must have heard the arguments against using Bhai Gurdas Jee writings in the context of this debate. I’m sure you are also aware of the altered version of Bhai Mani Singh’s Janamsakhi printed in Bombay in 1892. You have quoted from Guru Kian Sakhian and BansavaleeNama both of which have been published by Prof Piara Singh Padam, he however still believed the date as Vasaikh even though he edited both these books himself.
I could go on and start giving quotes from the Puratan Janamsakis and other old writings but that still will not prove anything.

These old Janamsakis are unique as they are entirely based on Guru Jee’s life whereas other materials only mention the occasion. They give us details which are hard to find elsewhere so to dismiss them entirely is a brave decision.

All historical accounts are not prefect so it’s hard to decide or come to a conclusion from them alone. I personally don’t think any historical document has changed your mind, rather I think its what you think Bhai Sahib thought is the main reason. I don’t blame you, if I thought Bhai Sahib was clear on this subject then I too would not be having this discussion.

Bhai Sahib has stressed the importance of celebrating Guru Nanak Dev Jee’s Gurpurab strongly. He has repeated this not once but a few times and goes into great detail on this subject. According to your comments he was fully aware of Professor Gurmukh Singh and Karam Singh Historian views. So why does he not mention this issue?

The quote you mentioned is not conclusive to his views on the correct date, Bhai Sahib writes that ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਪੁਰਬ ਮਨਾਏ ਹੈ। To me this is indicating that this is the day everyone is collectively celebrating Gurpurab and he is doing the same.

I also want to make clear that I never said you should not celebrate Gurpurabs. What I said was that the fixing of the date is a purely an academic issue not a spiritual one. The subject of time is a very complex one and its all relative therefore any system we adopt will not be perfect or accurate so it can not be ਸਤਿ. However the celebrating of Gurpurab and remembering Guru Jee is Gurmat and Bhai Sahib has said the focus should be towards that day when Guru Jee came here not on the present at Gurpurab.

Anyway that’s enough from me, I hope you can help me too Kulbir Singh in lifting my Dubda. It’s not good.

 



Re: Book Review: Guru Nanak Dev jee by Dr Trilochan Singh
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: November 10, 2009 11:01AM

---------
All historical accounts are not prefect so it’s hard to decide or come to a conclusion from them alone. I personally don’t think any historical document has changed your mind, rather I think its what you think Bhai Sahib thought is the main reason. I don’t blame you, if I thought Bhai Sahib was clear on this subject then I too would not be having this discussion.
--------

You are probably right. Actually, for many years, deep inside my mind, I needed a proper closure on this issue. Dr Trilochan Singh's writing really pushed me to reach a conclusion on this. Dr Trilochan Singh did not quote Bhatt Vahees but to me, the most convincing evidence after Bhai Sahib's opinion was Bhatt Vahees evidence. I found the proof of Bhatt Vahees on my own.

I am not keen on debating this Gurpurab date. I am satisfied that I personally have reached a conclusion on this and now I can celebrate the Gurpurab of Paatshahi Pehli with full effort, and without dubidha.

Kulbir Singh

 



Re: Book Review: Guru Nanak Dev jee by Dr Trilochan Singh
Posted by: samundarsingh (IP Logged)
Date: November 12, 2009 01:44PM

i have gone through kulbir ji's post.quite good,but why kulbir ji mentioned harrerama group and only mahnprabhu.this is not relevent on the ocassion of gurpurb .
i do not want to disturb his eagerness in returning to post on this site but his views are alwayas inclined towards hinduism.he did same thing in past on this site.bhai randhir singh ji never explained these stories and always condemened pro hindu mythology.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2009 03:57PM by admin.

 



Re: Book Review: Guru Nanak Dev jee by Dr Trilochan Singh
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: November 12, 2009 06:06PM

Samundar Singh jee,



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i have gone through kulbir ji's post.quite good,but why kulbir ji mentioned harrerama group and only mahnprabhu.this is not relevent on the ocassion of gurpurb .
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If you read my post carefully, you will see that it shows the greatness of Guru Sahib. Why is it not relevant to Gurpurab? Is showing greatness of Guru Sahib not relevant to Gurpurab. I write that Chataniya went into trance after meeting Guru Sahib. Then I write that his disciples became Guru Sahib's followers. What does this show? Guru Sahib's greatness or not?

It is a matter of fact that Guru Sahib met religious leaders of different sects and religions and all of them were impressed with Guru Sahib. Whether it was the Kazis and Imams of Islam or Pandits and Acharyas of Hindus or Lamas of Buddhists. They were all impressed by Guru Sahib and many great religious leaders of that time because Guru Sahib's disciples e.g. Swami Ramanand, Kabir, Sheikh Farid Sani etc.


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i do not want to disturb his eagerness in returning to post on this site but his views are alwayas inclined towards hinduism.he did same thing in past on this site.bhai randhir singh ji never explained these stories and always condemened pro hindu mythology.
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I don't need a certificate of being panthic from anyone. As far as I know myself, my views are inclined towards Guru Sahib and not towards Hinduism or Islam or any other school of thought. "Sabh te Vadda Satgur Nanak" is my ideal.

Your ninda towards me is quite welcome. Continue to do it and I will continue to do my work of of propagating Gurmat.

Kulbir Singh

 



Re: Book Review: Guru Nanak Dev jee by Dr Trilochan Singh
Posted by: Khalsaspirit (IP Logged)
Date: November 13, 2009 08:27AM

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Samunder Singh jio,

This is the text from Bhai Sahib’s writing which shows we should avoid condemning other religions instead improve our own spirituality.

“ਅੱਜ ‘ਕੌਮੀਅਤ’ ਤੇ ਕੌਮ-ਪ੍ਰਸਤੀ ਦੀ ਕੂਕ ਪੁਕਾਰ ਸੁਣ ਕੇ ਹਰ ਇਕ ਨੂੰ ‘ਕੌਮਪ੍ਰਸਤ’
ਕਹਾਉਣ ਦੀ ਲਾਲਸਾ ਲਗ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ। ਕੌਮ-ਪ੍ਰਸਤ ਕਹਾਉਣ ਦੀ ਲਾਲਸਾ ਰਖਣ
ਵਾਲਿਆਂ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਬਹੁਤਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਮਜ਼ਹਬ ਨੂੰ ਨਿੰਦਣ ਤੇ ਮਜ਼ਹਬ-ਪ੍ਰਸਤਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਭੰਡਣ ਦਾ
ਮੇਨੀਆ ਭੀ ਲਗ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ। ਤੇ ਇਹ ਇਕ ਐਸਾ ਕੋਝਾ ਵਤੀਰਾ ਤੁਰ ਪਿਆ ਹੈ, ਜੋ ਇਥੇ
ਤਕ ਵਧ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਅਜਿਹੇ ਕੌਮ-ਪ੍ਰਸਤ ਕਹਾਉਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਮਜ਼ਹਬ ਤੇ ਮਜ਼ਹਬ-ਪ੍ਰਸਤਾਂ
ਨੂੰ ਬੁਰਾ ਕਹਿਣਾ ਭੀ ਕੌਮ-ਪ੍ਰਸਤੀ ਹੀ ਸਮਝਦੇ ਹਨ। ਉਹ ਹਰ ਮਜ਼ਹਬ ਦੇ ਬਾਨੀਆਂ ਨੂੰ
ਭੀ ਬੁਰਾ ਕਹਿਣਾ ਫ਼ਖਰ ਸਮਝਦੇ ਹਨ। ਉਹ ਕਿਸੇ ਮਜ਼ਹਬ ਦੀ ਚੰਗੀ ਤੋਂ ਚੰਗੀ ਗੱਲ ਨੂੰ
ਸੁਣਨਾ ਭੀ ਕੌਮੀਅਤ ਤੇ ਕੌਮ-ਪ੍ਰਸਤੀ ਤੋਂ ਗਿਰਨਾ ਖ਼ਿਆਲ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ।..."

This article is so refreshing that it looks like just written:
[khalsaspirit.com]

Guru Mehar Karay

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

 



Re: Book Review: Guru Nanak Dev jee by Dr Trilochan Singh
Posted by: AVTAR SINGH (IP Logged)
Date: November 13, 2009 09:27AM

Waheguru jee ka khalsa
Waheguru jee ki fateh

Pl. refer to website satguru.weebly.com for latest update on proofs of Satguru nanak jee places of visits in world.

This research is proven by S. Harpal singh kasoor, living in Brampton.
You can talk to him and support his project for travels of guru nanak
around the world.

Guru jee met Martin King Luther senior, copernecus and pope of vatican city in rome and several other places and personalities.

Thanks

Wahe guru jee ka khalsa
Wahe guru jee kee fateh

 



Re: Book Review: Guru Nanak Dev jee by Dr Trilochan Singh
Posted by: samundarsingh (IP Logged)
Date: November 14, 2009 03:54AM

kulbir ji
replying to you,this is not ninda.only different opinion.ninda is always considered actual ninda when the opponent is perfect and true. but on other hand u digested your ustat very sweately.that is against gurmat.ustat by khalsa spirit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2009 03:19PM by admin.

 



Re: Book Review: Guru Nanak Dev jee by Dr Trilochan Singh
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: November 14, 2009 04:00PM

Samundar Singh jeeo,

Ninda means to state something contrary to truth. To tell a Singh that he is inclined towards Hinduism is the worst gaal (swearing) and worst form of Ninda. Why would a Singh who worships Akal Purakh be inclined towards idol-worshipping Hinduism? What is there in it that will prompt him to get inclined towards it? All the spiritual Makhan (butter)of the world is already in Gurbani and the rest of the world just has chaach (lassi). Who would leave Makhan and get inclined towards Lassi? I guess only that person who is suffering from the cholesterol of Manmatt.

You did not even read the post carefully and just by the mere mention of Chaitaniya you assumed that I am inclined towards Hinduism. It seems like you had a pre-disposition about me. I have stated earlier too that I appreciate good things of all religions but subscribe only to Sikhism. Above in the post by KHalsaspirit jee you have seen the quote from Bhai Sahib's writing that proves that other religions too have good things and there is nothing wrong in appreciating a goodness in someone.

Now I will explain why I thought that Chaitaniya's mention was worthy of mention. Chaitaniya took Bengal, East Bihar and Orissa by storm in the 1500s. He was a very good debater and never lost a debate. He shook the Advaita Vedantins of Shankracharya by defeating them in debates. He defeated Muslim Kazis and Advaitins alike in debates. This Chaitaniya on the other hand was extremely respectful towards Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee. He was greatly impressed. This I consider to be Vadiyaayee of Guru Sahib. Where ever Guru Sahib went they won. Whomever talked to Guru Sahib was impressed.

I am imagining that when Guru Sahib arrived at Jagannath Puri, they saw the Pandits over there performing Arti in that mandir. Chaitaniya had great Shardha in this temple and the deities there. Our history states that when Guru Sahib saw this Arti, they did not participate in it. At the asking of Pandits, Guru Sahib told them that they were doing false Arti. The real Arti of Vaheguru is already taking place naturally. When they asked Guru Sahib to explain it further, Siri Guru jee in great Vajad (spiritual passion) and piercing voice did kirtan of "Gagan mai thaal" shabad. Everyone there was stunned at the description of real Arti of Vaheguru going on naturally. It is my conjecture that Chaitaniya who was present there must have been greatly impressed by Guru Sahib at that time and as they state he went into trance because of this shabad. Many of his disciples became followers of Guru Sahib and some of them followed Guru Sahib towards South as Guru Sahib jee were heading to Sri Lanka to give Darshan to Raja Shiv Nabh Singh.

Regarding my ustat by Khalsaspirit jee, I told him that there is nothing in my tehreer (writing) worthy of praise. Even if there is anything good in my writing, it is still because of Vaheguru and therefore, all the praise goes to Vaheguru. Please read the post I wrote in response to his post.

Rest, if my posts caused you distress or any misunderstanding, I apologise to you.

Daas,
Kulbir Singh

 





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