Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

xzik101 jio,

Agree with you. We were thinking to post that Shabad of Dasam Patshah in beginnings but bhai Kulbir Singh ji explained everything in so detail and so perfectly that we withdrawn our thinking. Dasam Patshah's Shabad is actually the eye witness of vazood. In beginning of Shabad Guru Sahib mentions that "NOW I AM TELLING MY OWN STORY OR EXPERIENCE"

ਅਬ ਮੈ ਅਪਨੀ ਕਥਾ ਬਖਾਨੋ ॥ ਤਪ ਸਾਧਤ ਜਿਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਮੁਹਿ ਆਨੋ ॥

Which leaves no pico doubt about state after merger as explained in Shabad. Having this discussion and testimony of Guru Gobind Singh jee proves this ADVAIT VANDANTA is nothing but to create DVAIT (doubts) in KHALSA PANTH. This is very unfortunate that the GURU SAHIB DE HUNDYA SUNDYA (ਹੁੰਦਿਆਂ ਸੁੰਦਿਆਂ) why some of our brothers are looking for some thing else from some one else?

Guru Mehar Karay

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

kulbir singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Let us look at the analogy that you have used of
> teaching grammar to children and once they learn
> grammar they are taught to interpret
> intelligently. Pray tell us, when they are taught
> literature and when they interpret intelligently,
> do they ignore viyakaran rules? No. Actually what
> happens is that viyakaran becomes part of the
> being so much so that they don't have to think
> about viyakaran separately and they naturally and
> effortlessly consider viyakaran when they
> interpret literature. Same way, a Brahmgyani,
> would naturally and effortlessly employ viyakaran
> when interpreting Gurbani in the light of their
> Anubhav (spiritual experience).
--------------------------------------------------------------
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa!
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Naturally, a full-stop remains a full-stop, however, there is room for interpretation that may not always fit with the literal rules of grammar. For example, Guru Sahib uses names like 'Gobind', 'Har', 'Hari', 'Gopal' etc for 1 Waheguru. Applying strict, literal rules, one could argue that Guru Ji was referring to the Hindu deities of similar name (these usually being pronouns according to grammar), which is clearly not the case.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Please don't condemn the Gurmat principle of
> viyakaran to hide the weakness of your
> mahapurakhs. If certain Mahapurakhs did not know
> viyakaran, this does not mean that viyakaran
> should be belittled. Haath Kangan ko aarsi kya.
> Just study viyakaran yourself and you will know
> it's importance.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Veer Ji, was this directly aimed at me? With respect, how do you know who 'my Mahapurkhs' are and could you name those you feel didn't know Viyakaran? I haven't belittled it anywhere and for all you know I could have studied it in depth, - it's just not the 'be all - end all' of Gurbani Vichaar.

BAck to topic, how would you interpret the following: (Ang 1375)


ਕਬੀਰ ਤੂੰ ਤੂੰ ਕਰਤਾ ਤੂ ਹੂਆ ਮੁਝ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਾ ਨ ਹੂੰ ॥
kabeer thoo(n) thoo(n) karathaa thoo hooaa mujh mehi rehaa n hoo(n) ||
Kabeer, repeating, ""You, You"", I have become like You. Nothing of me remains in myself.

ਜਬ ਆਪਾ ਪਰ ਕਾ ਮਿਟਿ ਗਇਆ ਜਤ ਦੇਖਉ ਤਤ ਤੂ ॥204॥
jab aapaa par kaa mitt gaeiaa jath dhaekho thath thoo ||204||
When the difference between myself and others is removed, then wherever I look, I see only You. ||204||

From Ang 1165:
ਨਾਮੇ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ ਨਾਹੀ ਭੇਦੁ ॥28॥1॥10॥
naamae naaraaein naahee bhaedh ||28||1||10||
There is no difference between Naam Dayv and the Lord. ||28||1||10||


Kind regards,

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa!
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2008 12:04PM by admin.

Ok as per viakaran rules the pangti laak krori bandan pareh. is as laak krori band na pareh.

However when listening to katha by giani thakur singh jee, he states that he personally asked sant harnaam singh jee about this pangti and which is the mukh paat, sant jee said they did benti to maharaj and satguru jee stated the first one, and said whoever wants to recite as according to there own budhi can, however maharaj stated bandan pareh... in sukhmani sahib.

Matheen jeeo,

Quote:

Naturally, a full-stop remains a full-stop, however, there is room for interpretation that may not always fit with the literal rules of grammar. For example, Guru Sahib uses names like 'Gobind', 'Har', 'Hari', 'Gopal' etc for 1 Waheguru. Applying strict, literal rules, one could argue that Guru Ji was referring to the Hindu deities of similar name (these usually being pronouns according to grammar), which is clearly not the case.

I have never said that we should take literal meanings of Gurbani. All I have been writing is that we cannot ignore Gurbani Viyakaran when interpreting Gurbani. I am not saying that other tools like Anubhav, context etc. should not be used. With respect to what you wrote above, I am in agreement with you.

Quote:

Veer Ji, was this directly aimed at me? With respect, how do you know who 'my Mahapurkhs' are and could you name those you feel didn't know Viyakaran?

The above was not aimed at you Matheen jeeo and this is why it was in a separate paragraph. It was aimed generally at one's who belittle Gurbani viyakaran by saying that it can be ignored by high-avastha mahapurakhs.

Quote:

ਕਬੀਰ ਤੂੰ ਤੂੰ ਕਰਤਾ ਤੂ ਹੂਆ ਮੁਝ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਾ ਨ ਹੂੰ ॥
kabeer thoo(n) thoo(n) karathaa thoo hooaa mujh mehi rehaa n hoo(n) ||
Kabeer, repeating, ""You, You"", I have become like You. Nothing of me remains in myself.

ਜਬ ਆਪਾ ਪਰ ਕਾ ਮਿਟਿ ਗਇਆ ਜਤ ਦੇਖਉ ਤਤ ਤੂ ॥204॥
jab aapaa par kaa mitt gaeiaa jath dhaekho thath thoo ||204||
When the difference between myself and others is removed, then wherever I look, I see only You. ||204||

From Ang 1165:
ਨਾਮੇ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ ਨਾਹੀ ਭੇਦੁ ॥28॥1॥10॥
naamae naaraaein naahee bhaedh ||28||1||10||
There is no difference between Naam Dayv and the Lord. ||28||1||10||

Please make a note that these pankitis have been uttered by Mahapurakh Bhagats - Siri Kabir jee and Siri Bhagat Naamdev jee while they were alive in this body. In other words, they became one with Vaheguru while they were alive in this body. This proves my point that even though they were one with Vaheguru, still they retained their own identity. Please refer to my previous posts where I have suggested that in Gurmat being one with Vaheguru does not mean losing existence but means being absorbed in the charan kamal kee mauj. Now look at the pankitis above and tell me if Bhagat Kabir jee and Bhagat Naamdev jee who were one with Vaheguru when they uttered these pankitis, also did they not retain their identities too? They were one with Vaheguru and they also retain their identities.

Look what Bhagat Kabir jee is saying. He is addressing Vaheguru (another proof that Bhagat jee's identity was separate even while being one with Vaheguru) and saying doing you you (japping Naam) I have become you and there is no longer hoo (ahankaar) in me now. The very fact that he is still referring to no aham in himself means he is there, alive, existent, thought united and one with Vaheguru. Who else is he communicating to? If he had become one with Vaheguru and ceased to exist, then why is he telling Vaheguru that he has lost his ego i.e. aham? Or is it Vaheguru talking to himself?

It's clear that Bhagat Kabir jee and Bhagat Naamdev jee in the above stated shabads are one with Vaheguru, so much so that there is no difference to the visible eye, yet, Bhagat Sahibaan have retained their identities.

Kulbir Singh

Kulbir Singh wrote:

>Bhagat Kabir jee and Bhagat Naamdev jee who were one with Vaheguru when they >uttered these pankitis, also did they not retain their identities too? They were >one with Vaheguru and they also retain their identities.
----------------------------------------------

If they have become 1 with Waheguru, then what is their identity since they are one and not two? i.e. Kabir Ji is saying there is no difference between his true self and Waheguru ==> in effect, Kabir Ji at this point is identifying himself as Atma, which is same as Parmatma, according to Gurbani. IMHO, this is the case with every human being, but we haven't realised it due to maya, haumai etc.

This is what 'becoming' one with Akaal is - realisation of the truth that your true self, your true roop is one with Waheguru. This cannot be thought of as annihilation or ceasing to exist. (By realisation I don't mean acknowledgement of the situation but that it really happened and they experienced it).

It is the natural conclusion to Bhagti - Shabad Guru takes the surti up to the Atma and when it gets there we realise who we really are.

Anyway, there is no point in talking about jeevan mukti when I can't even wake up at Amritvela!! If we all concentrate on our Abhiyaas and doing what Guru ji has asked us to, Guru Ji will take care of the rest. We are trying to describe something we haven't experienced (I speak for myself) and until we reach these high Avasthas, there is no point arguing over details.

kulbir singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Please make a note that these pankitis have been
> uttered by Mahapurakh Bhagats - Siri Kabir jee and
> Siri Bhagat Naamdev jee while they were alive in
> this body. In other words, they became one with
> Vaheguru while they were alive in this body. This
> proves my point that even though they were one
> with Vaheguru, still they retained their own
> identity. Please refer to my previous posts where
> I have suggested that in Gurmat being one with
> Vaheguru does not mean losing existence but means
> being absorbed in the charan kamal kee mauj. Now
> look at the pankitis above and tell me if Bhagat
> Kabir jee and Bhagat Naamdev jee who were one with
> Vaheguru when they uttered these pankitis, also
> did they not retain their identities too? They
> were one with Vaheguru and they also retain their
> identities.
>
> Look what Bhagat Kabir jee is saying. He is
> addressing Vaheguru (another proof that Bhagat
> jee's identity was separate even while being one
> with Vaheguru) and saying doing you you (japping
> Naam) I have become you and there is no longer hoo
> (ahankaar) in me now. The very fact that he is
> still referring to no aham in himself means he is
> there, alive, existent, thought united and one
> with Vaheguru. Who else is he communicating to? If
> he had become one with Vaheguru and ceased to
> exist, then why is he telling Vaheguru that he has
> lost his ego i.e. aham? Or is it Vaheguru talking
> to himself?
>
> It's clear that Bhagat Kabir jee and Bhagat
> Naamdev jee in the above stated shabads are one
> with Vaheguru, so much so that there is no
> difference to the visible eye, yet, Bhagat
> Sahibaan have retained their identities.
>
> Kulbir Singh

This is exactly what I wrote that sant ji stated in his talk. Why do you keep insisting that he said otherwise?

The identity (ego) is erased. Never did he say that the soul is destroyed.

Forget to add this to my last post. This shabad makes it all clear for me.

rwgu soriT bwxI Bgq rivdws jI kI
raag sorat(h) baanee bhagath ravidhaas jee kee
Raag Sorat'h, The Word Of Devotee Ravi Daas Jee:

<> siqgur pRswid ]
ik oa(n)kaar sathigur prasaadh ||
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

jb hm hoqy qb qU nwhI Ab qUhI mY nwhI ]
jab ham hothae thab thoo naahee ab thoohee mai naahee ||
When I am, then You are not. Now that You are, I am not.

Anl Agm jYsy lhir mie EdiD jl kyvl jl mWhI ]1]
anal agam jaisae lehar mae oudhadhh jal kaeval jal maa(n)hee ||1||
The wind may raise up huge waves in the vast ocean, but they are just water in water. ||1||

mwDvy ikAw khIAY BRmu AYsw ]
maadhhavae kiaa keheeai bhram aisaa ||
O Lord, what can I say about such an illusion?

jYsw mwnIAY hoie n qYsw ]1] rhwau ]
jaisaa maaneeai hoe n thaisaa ||1|| rehaao ||
Things are not as they seem. ||1||Pause||

nrpiq eyku isMGwsin soieAw supny BieAw iBKwrI ]
narapath eaek si(n)ghaasan soeiaa supanae bhaeiaa bhikhaaree ||
It is like the king, who falls asleep upon his throne, and dreams that he is a beggar.

ACq rwj ibCurq duKu pwieAw so giq BeI hmwrI ]2]
ashhath raaj bishhurath dhukh paaeiaa so gath bhee hamaaree ||2||
His kingdom is intact, but separated from it, he suffers in sorrow. Such is my own condition. ||2||

rwj BuieAMg pRsMg jYsy hih Ab kCu mrmu jnwieAw ]
raaj bhueia(n)g prasa(n)g jaisae hehi ab kashh maram janaaeiaa ||
Like the story of the rope mistaken for a snake, the mystery has now been explained to me.

Aink ktk jYsy BUil pry Ab khqy khnu n AwieAw ]3]
anik kattak jaisae bhool parae ab kehathae kehan n aaeiaa ||3||
Like the many bracelets, which I mistakenly thought were gold; now, I do not say what I said then. ||3||

srby eyku AnykY suAwmI sB Gt BuogvY soeI ]
sarabae eaek anaekai suaamee sabh ghatt bhuogavai soee ||
The One Lord is pervading the many forms; He enjoys Himself in all hearts.

kih rivdws hwQ pY nyrY shjy hoie su hoeI ]4]1]
kehi ravidhaas haathh pai naerai sehajae hoe s hoee ||4||1||
Says Ravi Daas, the Lord is nearer than our own hands and feet. Whatever will be, will be. ||4||1||

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

dear veer/bhain matheen jee,

you wrote:

"It is the natural conclusion to Bhagti - Shabad Guru takes the surti up to the Atma and when it gets there we realise who we really are".

my understanding, based completely upon my limited understanding of gurbaaNee and the writings of gurmukhs, NOT personal experience (despite what my name suggests! lol), is that the stage where one perceives Self (Atma) is not the same stage whereupon one perceives Paratma (Universal Self/Atma). this is apparent even in the level of Parkaash/Vigaas one perceives. if Atma is one light bulb, Paratma is infinite shining suns.

however apparently, once someone has perceived Atma, they are not very far off from realising Paratma...it is a major milestone on the path of Gurmat/Naam Marag/Prembhagtee.

my current understanding is that perhaps some who realise Atma become stuck at that stage believeing that this is darshan of vaheguroo i.e. they think 'i am vaheguroo (the concept of Sohang). my belief is that the thin veil of ego would still remain and therefore this is actually very far off from true Vaheguroo Darshan/Milaap/Ik Mik Avastha.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

xzik101 wrote:
We all respect and honour Harkowalwalay Sant regardless of ones personal group affiliation. No one is saying anything against Sant Jee which one might find "disturbing", if anything, Sant Jee has been shown utmost respect. I think that Kulbir Singh Jee started this thread to just discuss whether or not Gurmat is Advait as alot of people have now begun to think that Advaidvaad is Gurmat. Kulbir Singh has made some valid points on this topic using Gurbani and only Gurbani.

I respect that Bhai Kulbir Singh Ji has used Gurbani and Gurmat and is very knowledgable and mahaan compared to my maha paapi-self. The reason i found this thread disturbing was because NEVER would i question Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh ji, similarly, i find it incredibily DISGUSTING that someone is questioning Sant Baba Jagjit Singh ji. We should listen to their veechar and paarchar with pyaar and not try to compare it with another.
I agree with Matheen veer ji that we are trying to describe something we haven't experienced is sumwhat useless. Im sorry if none of this makes sense and is going off-topic.
hir jip jIAry CutIAY gurmuiK cInY Awpu ]3]
har jap jeearae shhutteeai guramukh cheenai aap.

The atma in sachkhand merges with Waheguru. The atma is made of the same stuff as parmatma. Like a drop of water merging in the ocean. The H2O molecules in that drop intermixes with the H2O molecules in the ocean. It does not retain the shape of the drop, yet at the same time, the water in the drop is not destroyed.
Gurbani truthfully states that the atma enjoys bliss in sachkhand. This is Waheguru in bliss contemplating Himself. It does not mean an existence as a separate being.

ਆਪਿ ਉਪਾਏ ਆਪਿ ਖਪਾਏ ॥
ਆਪੇ ਸਿਰਿ ਸਿਰਿ ਧੰਧੈ ਲਾਏ ॥
ਆਪੇ ਵੀਚਾਰੀ ਗੁਣਕਾਰੀ ਆਪੇ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਲਾਈ ਹੇ ॥੨॥
You Yourself create, and You Yourself destroy.
You yourself link each and every person to their tasks.
You contemplate Yourself, You Yourself make us worthy; You Yourself place us on the Path. ||2||
(ang 1020)


ਆਪੇ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇ ਕੈ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਵੀਚਾਰ ॥
He Himself created the world; He contemplates His Creative Omnipotence. (ang 1280) (http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=KeertanPage&K=1280&L=19)

The above proves beyond doubt that Waheguru contemplates on Himself. This is the only explanation that seems to reconcile the Gurbani that explicitly states that atma and parmata merge with the Gurbani stating that the bhagats are in bliss in sachkhand.

When a bhramgyani contemplates on Waheguru, that is Waheguru contemplating Himself as a bhramgyani is one with Waheguru. For example, when Baba Gurbachan Singh ji looked at someone, that is Waheguru looking at someone through the body labelled Gurbachan Singh. there is no difference.

this is interesting because

i often see people interpret 'haumai' as meaning only vanity or superificial ego. and the views expressed here king of explain why, whereas to me it has always obviously refered to the very centre of self-existance ('aap'- Guru tells us to lose the self- aap gavaieaa). the very 'I am' has to go to see God.

to be fair to advaita vedanta, it skind of a fashion these days and alot of people have thrown in their own opinions- people who dont really know about these things.

someone said that in advaita the Brahman doesnt care about his bhagats. but the Advaitins say the world is illusitory, so that explains why. the key of all suffering is belief that the self is real. also they say that the experience, experienced and experiencer are One and not seperate. that One is Brahman. this isnt an indifferant God.

I read in paath once Guru Nanak says no-one is born (ajati). this would sound very familiar to an Advaitin.

and i know we have alot sufi fans here. so how would you reconcile this with their talk of 'fana-al-fana'?

Bhai Sahib Kulbir singh,

sorry for the delay in replying to your post, been really busy with gristh jevaan. I hope this post will bring tat khalsa parchar as khalsa spirit like to call it :)

Quote:

I find it hard to believe that a Brahmgyani who has realized the ultimate will do such antreev arths of Gurbani that would contradict viyakaran of Gurbani. You say that when a normal person interprets Gurbani he or she uses Viyakaran but a Brahmgyani would not use viyakaran rules. Why is it so? If anything, a Brahmgyani would use superior knowledge of Gurbani Viyakaran to understand Gurbani. Just as Gurbani arths would come naturally to a Brahmgyani same way Gurbani viyakaran would come natural to him or her. Their surtee and Budhi would be tuned it to that of Guru Sahib and thus they would realize not only true meanings but also true Gurbani Viyakaran because when Guru Sahib wrote Gurbani they themselves created the unique Gurbani viyakaran so that Gurbani does not get misinterpreted. I give few examples to bring forth my point:

Veer kulbir singh, i never mentioned words like "contradict vikayaran of gurbani" "against vikayaran" . I beleive they are very strong words which does not do justice to describe my stance. There are three reasons i said Anubhavi arths are not bound by viakyaran (refering to teekakars who have done arths using vikayaran kausuti)

1) Gurbani vikayaran is a tool which is used to simplify dhur ki bani into bhav arths, Gurbani vikayaran is sampooran in itself but there are differences of opnions of scholars who claim authority over gurbani vikayaran, people who have used certain standarized vikayaran rules in gurbani yet couldn't fully standardized gurbani vikayaran sidhant, there are still loads of work needs to be done as article suggests above because there are vikayaran niyam(rules) made by scholars where scholars like prof sahib singh and others tried to apply it consistently in gurbani and failed. During this failure, sampardai arths/uthanka comes into play are equally valid because its coming from seena-basina tradition going all the way to bhai mani singh taksal.

For eg-

In academic missionary circle- prof sahib singh's teeka - Gurbani Darpan is considered somewhat authority to translate/interpret gurbani. Prof sahib singh teeka its far from perfect, has lot of mistakes in them( thats fine because he mentioned in his preface that my work is just tip of the iceberg). Please read Prof sher singh who is language vigyani in punjab university found his translations somewhat shallow and also check Dr Harkarit Singh view on vikayaran niyam..book is called- gurbani basha and vikayaran he bought some interesting analysis on vikaayaran rules translations of sri guru granth sahib ji and found one vikayaran sidhant/niyam(rules) cannot be applied consistently, here are couple of examples of many, in his analysis on vikayaran he writes.

- vikaayaran niyam explained by prof sahib singh does not apply to some parts in bhagat bani because some parts in bhagata bani rachna is written in marathi basha in sri guru granth sahib ji, because each language has their own grammar, also sidhant of vikayaran prof sahib used in japj sahib, same sidhant of vikayaran couldn't apply in rehras sahib consistently. There are even diversity within vikayaran interpertation of gurbani as article suggests.

- On different ocassion, sant gurbachan singh ji mentioned how yet again vikayaran niyam which was applied in certain shabad cannot be applied consistently in other shabads. Here is the audio recording of sri guru granth sahib ji katha by sant gurbachan singh ji: please fwd it to 17:00 minutes.


[www.gurmatveechar.org]

Quote:

If you guys are so against viyakaran and believe that deeper meanings are free from viyakaran rules then give some examples and post the meanings. I have read some deeper meanings by Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji but they do not go against viyakaran. Instead, they are best explained using viyakaran. Only after studying it one understand its true essence.

Sant gurbachan singh ji did antriv arths via samparda seena-basina tradition done by mahapursh in taksal who were anubhavi coming striaght from bhai mani singh ji. He is not against vikayaran totally but he did found as stated above in audio katha of sri guru granth sahib done by him that he finds certain vikayaran niyam(rules) not consistent or accurate thats where sampardai arths and uthanka arths comes in handy.

Now question as of why i said anubhav arths of gurbani are not bound by vikayaran rules...not just antriv arths but uthanka of certain shabad is not bound by vikayaran either. I will give you three examples-

- Sikhi sidhant was challenged by RSS type people who were challenging Vahiguroo cannot be Gurmantar. At that point nirmale baba isher singh kalyug wale bought fwd 500 antriv arths of Vahiguroo mantar. Now tell me which vikayaran sidhant/rules he used when he bought fwd 500 arths of vahiguroo mantar? Sant jagjit singh said, arths are fully antriv in nature and if you were to do arths of vahiguroo in vikayaran you can go far 10 at the max.

- If we go by gurbani vikayaran we will not be able to do uthanka of certain shabad since certain shabads are directly linked with events involving our Guru Sahiban and bhagats..as some people who are premis of vikayaran of gurbani beleive that there can be one interpertation of gurbani.

- This is very important point, please try to understand this.
When this jev gets bhramgyan, their surti merges into nirankar, same nirankar dhur ki bani comes from. When bhramgyani does interpertation of gurbani via their anubhav bhramgyan they don't need to follow 1st step use vikayaran to get arths of certain tuk or shabad because they already realize the tat nichor(essence) of that certain shabad, tuk. They give out tat nichor of shabad or tuk which naturally will not contradict Gurbani vikayaran sidhant set by Guru Sahib himself not dunavi punjabi vikayaran. Gurbani vikayaran is still yet to be fully discovered. As vikayaran niyam(rules) set by scholars of the panth still not sampooran itself or accurate as the article pointed out along with sant gurbachan singh ji pointed out.

Quote:

It is such an absurd thing I have heard that the jeev is made of 5 elements. Who says so? Please ponder upon the following pankiti:
har jeo gofa andar rakh kai, vaja pavan vajaya ||

(Hari placed the Jeeo inside the body and started the process of breathing).

This pankiti clearly distinguishes between the jeeo and the body. The jeeo is not made of 5 elements but the body is. So what did Vaheguru do? Place jeev made of 5 elements in the body made of 5 elements? No. The jeev is Abinaashi.

I admit i choose poor choice of words here, i meant to say body is made out of five elements but jev is in the body. Jiv atma is abnashi in essence but since antish karan doesn't recnognize its true self, until then this consciouness doesn't merge with super conscouness and become abhinashi.

Quote:

And yes Atma is roop of Paarbraham Vaheguru but not Vaheguru. Please ponder upon the following pankiti:
Acharcj Katha Maha Anoop
Paratma parbhram ka roop


It clearly states the the praatma i.e. the Aatma is the roop of Paarbraham Vaheguru. This means it is the roop of it and not Paarbraham itself as Advaita Vedanta states. The very fact that Paraatma and Parbraham are mentioned separately proves that they are separate, though totally united.

Here we go again, all this already been addressed by J Singh in the following link
from old tapoban forum : [www.gurmarag.net]


After reading the debate one can easily fetch your views were same 3 years ago, same now, same will be after you realize your body as this is directly related to your surti based on your own understanding of gurbani. I have read discussion between jsingh and yourself three times.. its my all time favorite, that discussion touches finest of finest sidhant in gurmat. Everyone who is reading this discussion should definitely read that discussion before as well.

The above pankiti still does not fullfill your main cause..because that panktii is meant for certain state or surti as i mentioned earlier gurbani are meant different state of minds.. you cannot make a rule if gurbani is giving updesh to paapi, jaiagaso, same updesh is also given to bhramgyani.

Here is shabad where gurbani giving explaining avastha of gurmukh/bhramgyani. In this shabad two separate entities- joti(atma), surti(individual consciousness) merges into jot and surat:


Joti jot millaie surati surat sanjog ||


Clear distincation is made how joti(atma) and individual surti after getting bhramgyan merges with Param Jot and Param Surat no other than vahiguroo himself. What happened to the individual surti in this shabad? It merged into super consciouness nirgun roop which is sat chit anandsvaroop.

Here is another one

Pavanaie Mein Pavan Samaaiya Joti Mein Jot Ral Jaiya ||

Here is another one:

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਦੀਸੈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਸੁਣੀਐ ਏਕੁ ਏਕੁ ਵਖਾਣੀਐ ॥
breham dheesai breham suneeai eaek eaek vakhaaneeai ||
ਆਤਮ ਪਸਾਰਾ ਕਰਣਹਾਰਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਬਿਨਾ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੀਐ ॥
aatham pasaaraa karanehaaraa prabh binaa nehee jaaneeai ||

Quote:

You write that you gave many pankitis that state that the aatma loses existence in ekta with Vaheguru and I responded back giving example of Siri Dasmesh jee that ekta does not mean losing existence. Siri Dasmesh jee was very much existent even after being one with Vaheguru and this is evident from the following pankitis...Siri Guru jee is clearly stating that he became one from two. This means total unity took place. Now inspite of this union, Siri Guru jee's existence continued on. This is something you don't accept. Siri Guru jee in his own Gurbani (quoted earlier in this post) makes it clear that Vaheguru jee sent Guru Sahib and before coming a long dialogue took place between the two. So your concept of Vaheguru coming as Avatar does not stand in front of Guru Sahib's own testimony of how they came to Earth. Was Vaheguru talking to himself or was he talking to his Bhagat Siri Dasmesh jee, who was totally united in him, but keeping his identity?
Eh Badh Karat Tapasya Bhaiye || Dvaie Taie Ek Roop ho gaye

Chit na bhaie hamraie aavan keh
Chobi rahi surat prabh charnan meh
Joi taoi prab ham kai smjhaie
Em kahi kaae eh lok pataye ||

This is exactly what Siri Bhagat Kabir jee has written:


Kabir swarag narak taie me rahio satgur kaie gurparsa
Charan kamal ki mauj mein raho ant aur aad.

I am just suprised it didnt even occur to you even for one second that is quite possible that this deliverance might have taken place in sri guru gobind singh ji previous earthly life as dushat daman avtar at hemkunt.

Even If we go with your opnion on this that guru ji was given deliverance in spiritual world which you should said it implies guru ji had seperate vajood, conscinouness then how do you explain narsingh avtar(half lion and half man) who came to kill harnakash and save parlhad. Was narsingh avtar before arrival was chilling in sachkhand as well holding onto his vajood and surti. Was he also doing naam simran same where in the sachkhand?

Quote:

Now it has been established beyond doubt that being one means to be absorbed in the Charan Kamal of Vaheguru forever and ever. It definitely does not mean annihilation of the jeev because as Siri Dasmesh jee has pointed out that the surthee (one of the components of Antishkaran) stay on even after merger. Mann too stays on because in Gurbani it is written that even Vaheguru has a mann. All this talk about antashkaran being of 5 elements is Advaita trash. According to Gurmat, in the 3rd Khand - Sharam Khand, the antishkaran of the jeev is reequipped or tuned for Sach Khand. Please ponder upon the following Pankiti for this:
Tithaie Gharaie Surat Mat Man Budh
Tithaie Gharaie Sora Sidha Ki Sudh ||


There in Sharam Khand the antashkaran (surat, mann, budh etc) get re-carved or tuned for Sachkhand.

Nothing is been established here mate, thats your surti based on your own understanding of gurbani. As guru sahib mentioned in chaupi sahib, jinni buddhi vahiguroo valu milli hai, uhni buddhi dwara bandai di sochni aa or here is an classic tuk which explains whichever surat: jehri surat tahi rahe jai ||

Calling antish karan as advaita trash just shows how frustrated you are with theory of atma totally residing in gurmat. That you went to call advaita(oneness with bhram/vahiguroo) as trash in intoxication of your hindu phobia, you just fell in a same dandal which kala afghana has fell on this matter

Quote:

This is what I am saying too. They believe that after the antashkaran is destroyed, there is only Brahm but Gurbani does not support this. First of all, the mann and Surtee etc. don't die as I stated before. Secondly after falling of Aham (false ego, KuRai paal) the jeev and Vaheguru become one. Becoming one does not mean annihilation of the jeev as you state. Advaita really states that jeev realizes that he is the Brahm. This is why they call out Aham Brahmasiya. This is totally against Gurmat. Gurmat does not support this in any way.

As sant jagjit singh ji says prem bhagti marg and gyan of your self marg totally parvan in sikhi..as far as gurbani sidhant is concerned because gurbani there are many quotes of prem/variaag and many quotes of ekta wale shabad. As jaigaso we should do vairaag, prema bhagti but for bhramgyanis there is no paun there is no paap, as bhagat kabir ji after attaining bhramgyan he said:


sohang so jaa ko hai jaap ||
jaa ko lipath n hoe pu(n)n ar paap ||6||

ang- 1162

Quote:

None of the pankitis you have quoted fulfill your cause. All the pankitis you quoted call for ekta of jeev and Parmatma but none says that the jeev is annihilated. The example of Siri Dasmesh jee clearly proves that being one means to get one's surtee absorbed in the Charan Kamal of Vaheguru.

I really don't think i have energy like J singh who had veechar on this topic with you for 20 straight days tried from all different angles to show you thats your preception of sachkhand, will remain your preception based on your surti. But thats not rule for everyone. You have proven nothing before nothing now that there is one premanent divine law that each jiv who have got bhramgyan holds on to its vajood.

If maharaj does equal kirpa on both of us when we leave our body, you will be there with your vajood(surti, consciouness) along with countless others who have same belief as yourself in sachkhand (place as you call it) because thats what your surti is attuned towards. But i will not be there mate so you won't be able to tease me ..hehe. I will be merged with that parmanand roop nirgun sarabvypak vahiguroo because thats what i wish for, call it annihilation, sucide, nothingness whatever you wish based on your own understanding.

If you call loosing one vajood and merging completly with vahiguroo is an sucide, annahliation, merging into nothiness what you will do when Vahiguroo decides to merge all his parpanch akar/sargun parsara into itself?

what would you call when vahiguroo decides to merge all his parpanch ? sucide..?

You will also have to merge in to same energy and loose your vajood, consicouness, indentity which you call annihilation where would your vajood be then?

Here are few shabads to ponder upon on the topic of destruction and creation of all pasara including physical and spiritual realms how one day all the pasara akara, asthohol, sukhsham, traie gun will all perish. This shabad talks both about spiritual and physical realms:

ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਪੁਰੀ ਮਹਿ ਸਰਪਰ ਮਰਣਾ ॥
eindhr puree mehi sarapar maranaa ||
In the Realm of Indra, death is sure and certain.
8 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪੁਰੀ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਨਹੀ ਰਹਣਾ ॥
breham puree nihachal nehee rehanaa ||
The Realm of Brahma shall not remain permanent.
8 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਸਿਵ ਪੁਰੀ ਕਾ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਕਾਲਾ ॥
siv puree kaa hoeigaa kaalaa ||
The Realm of Shiva shall also perish.
9 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਾਇਆ ਬਿਨਸਿ ਬਿਤਾਲਾ ॥੨॥
thrai gun maaeiaa binas bithaalaa ||2||
The three dispositions, Maya and the demons shall vanish. ||2||
9 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਗਿਰਿ ਤਰ ਧਰਣਿ ਗਗਨ ਅਰੁ ਤਾਰੇ ॥
gir thar dhharan gagan ar thaarae ||
The mountains, the trees, the earth, the sky and the stars;
9 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਰਵਿ ਸਸਿ ਪਵਣੁ ਪਾਵਕੁ ਨੀਰਾਰੇ ॥
rav sas pavan paavak neeraarae ||
the sun, the moon, the wind, water and fire;
10 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਦਿਨਸੁ ਰੈਣਿ ਬਰਤ ਅਰੁ ਭੇਦਾ ॥
dhinas rain barath ar bhaedhaa ||
day and night, fasting days and their determination;
10 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਸਾਸਤ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬਿਨਸਹਿਗੇ ਬੇਦਾ ॥੩॥
saasath sinmrith binasehigae baedhaa ||3||
the Shaastras, the Simritees and the Vedas shall pass away. ||3||
10 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਤੀਰਥ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਪੋਥੀ ॥
theerathh dhaev dhaehuraa pothhee ||
The sacred shrines of pilgrimage, gods, temples and holy books;
11 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਮਾਲਾ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਸੋਚ ਪਾਕ ਹੋਤੀ ॥
maalaa thilak soch paak hothee ||
rosaries, ceremonial tilak marks on the forehead, meditative people, the pure, and the performers of burnt offerings;
11 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਧੋਤੀ ਡੰਡਉਤਿ ਪਰਸਾਦਨ ਭੋਗਾ ॥
dhhothee ddanddouth parasaadhan bhogaa ||
wearing loin cloths, bowing in reverence and the enjoyment of sacred foods
11 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਗਵਨੁ ਕਰੈਗੋ ਸਗਲੋ ਲੋਗਾ ॥੪॥
gavan karaigo sagalo logaa ||4||
- all these, and all people, shall pass away. ||4||
12 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਜਾਤਿ ਵਰਨ ਤੁਰਕ ਅਰੁ ਹਿੰਦੂ ॥
jaath varan thurak ar hindhoo ||
Social classes, races, Muslims and Hindus;
12 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਪਸੁ ਪੰਖੀ ਅਨਿਕ ਜੋਨਿ ਜਿੰਦੂ ॥
pas pankhee anik jon jindhoo ||
beasts, birds and the many varieties of beings and creatures;
12 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਸਗਲ ਪਾਸਾਰੁ ਦੀਸੈ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥
sagal paasaar dheesai paasaaraa ||
the entire world and the visible universe
12 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਬਿਨਸਿ ਜਾਇਗੋ ਸਗਲ ਆਕਾਰਾ ॥੫॥
binas jaaeigo sagal aakaaraa ||5||
- all forms of existence shall pass away. ||5||

Here is 2nd shabad on this topic:

ਸਾਗਰ ਮਹਿ ਬੂੰਦ ਬੂੰਦ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਕਵਣੁ ਬੁਝੈ ਬਿਧਿ ਜਾਣੈ ॥
saagar mehi boondh boondh mehi saagar kavan bujhai bidhh jaanai ||
The drop is in the ocean, and the ocean is in the drop. Who understands, and knows this?
18 Raamkalee Guru Nanak Dev
ਉਤਭੁਜ ਚਲਤ ਆਪਿ ਕਰਿ ਚੀਨੈ ਆਪੇ ਤਤੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ॥੧॥
outhabhuj chalath aap kar cheenai aapae thath pashhaanai ||1||
He Himself creates the wondrous play of the world. He Himself contemplates it, and understands its true essence. ||1||

Here is another one:

ਜਿਸ ਤੇ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਤਿਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਨਾ ॥
jis thae oupajiaa this maahi samaanaa ||

Here is the last one, this one is very important to read and its quite poetic, guru maharaj ji talks about parsara of this akaar:

Bazigar Jasie Baazi Paie
Nana Roop Bhek Dekhlaie
Sang Utar Thaimo Pasara
Tab Ikaie Ikankara ||

Kavan Roop Dristio Binasio
Kaithe Gayoo Oh Kath Dhayo ||

Jal Tai Utaie Anakh Taranga
Kanakh bhookaie Bahu ranga
Bij Bij Dekho Bahu Parkara
Phul Pakaie Taie Ikankara ||

Sahet Gatava Mein Ek Akash
Ghat Footaie Ohi Pargas ||

Quote:

think you know what I am trying to say. Advaita does not believe in a Vaheguru who feels for bhagats and loves them, cares for them etc. According to Advaita he is Sat chit Anand in the sense that he is carefree of the world. Correct me on this. It also states that the world has been created out of ignorance but according to Gurbani, the world including the maya has been created by Vaheguru consciously and not as a result of some illusion or ignorance as Advaita states. This is why Vaheguru cares for this world. About his creation - he is - Vekhai Vigsai kar Vichaar|| Is this how the Brahm of Advaita too does i.e. look at his creation and be satisfied? No. The Brahm of Advaita did not even create this world. The world according to that Brahm of Advaita Vedanta is a result of illusion and not his conscious creation.
Tell me with honesty, does the Brahm of Advaita have the following attributes:


Santan Dukh paaye te dukhi|| Dukh paaye Saadhan ke sukhi||

Never. Impossible. That Brahm is Sada Chit Anand in his own saroop and feels not for his Bhagats. Look at the Brahm of Gurmat who feels dukh when his Bhagats feel Dukh and feels sukh when Saadhu Jan feel sukh. Is the Advaita Vedanta Brahm like this? No!

Advaita is theory of atma ekta with paratama. Therefore, they have only mentioned attributes of vahiguroo which relates to this atma being sat chit anand saroop. I agree advaita does not mention attributes to do with emotions as it gyan marg. But because of that, you cannot say advaita theory is not parvan in Gurmat.

Sant jagjit singh ji as sun singh quote again beleives in the Gurmat - sikhi prema marg and gyan marg both are parvan, for starters is prema bhagti but for bhramgyani according to their surtee/perception they could carry with this same prem bhavna or they could say, sing out all aloud from gurbani- sohang so jai jaap , ja ko paun, there is no paap or paun for them, they are above karams and reason its not recommended for jaigaso because they can become more ahankari with jap. This gurmat sidhant - prema bhagti/gyan marg is beleived by all samparda- nirmale, sevapanthis, taksal.

Quote:

This theory has its roots in Vedas. Vedas have been rejected by Guru Sahib. The what is the standing of Vedas produced Advaita or the Vedas concept of Karma and reincarnation. Gurmat Karam Philosphy is different from that of Buddhist Karma and Vedas Karma. I don't know why you are under the impression that Gurmat has adopted the Karma philosophy of Hindus or Buddhists. I think you should read Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee's monumental book on Gurmat Karam Philosophy. The Napunsak (impotent) Karam philosophy of Buddhism and Vedas has been rejected by Gurmat. I don't want open a new front on Karam philosophy here, so I will stick to the topic on hand.

I never said theory of karma has orgins of hinduism. i said theory of karam is shared by eastern religions with few differences within them. I also don't want to open a new front on karam philosphy here as well, if you wish to discuss further kindly open up another topic as well.

Quote:

What Anadi Anubhavi Mahapurash are you referring to? No one has been Anadi Anubhavi Mahapurash without the kirpa of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee. Those Anaadi Mahapurash who are considered to be Pitamahs of Vedant are slaves of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee. Please refer to the following pankitis for proof on this:


Who's greater in Hindus than Brahma the doer of Vedas? Who's greater sage in Hindu Dharam than Ved Vyaas who did the viyakaran of Vedas and divided them into 4 parts? Who is greater than Mahadev Shiv jee, who knows ultimate dhyaan and is the master of Yoga? Well, as per the above quote from Savaiyye Mahalle Pehle ke, they all are singing praises of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee. Looks like in due time they realized the true Guru - Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee.

Why don't you ask sant jagjit singh ji harkhowale when he comes to toronto next time on which anubhavi mahapursh he is referring to??

You are more than welcome to discuss this with sant jagjit singh ji. I have already discuss it with your student- bijla singh in quite detail on sikhsangat forum. I have no desire to beat the dead horse.

Quote:

I have explained earlier that Karma, Vedant etc as explained in Hindu or Buddhist way has no place in Gurmat. According to the propenents of Advaita what did Gurmat bring to this world? It borrowed Vedant from Hindus and Karma from them as well. What is Gurmat offering to the world then? You guys are making Gurmat part of the Sanatan Dharma, for heaven's sake. While I don't have a phobia about Hindu religion like the extemists like Kala Afghana do, and I have respect and regard for these philosophies but at the same time, and I think of them as most exalted thoughts after Gurmat but I do believe that Gurmat is unique and not part of any old tradition. Gurmat of Guru Nanak Dev jee introduced to this world the true Nirgun-ism and it is the preacher of Gurmat Naam, without which no one can reach Vaheguru. Gurmat has not borrowed any concept from anyone. Gurmat is the source not borrower of knowledge. Gurmat is Vaheguru's own Dharma as per Bachiter Natak of Siri Guru Gobind Singh jee

You see all your questions were already asked by myself and other singhs, sant ji answered them quite clearly. During the interview i even played devil's advocate and asked him all these questions, if you are not satisifed with the answers..no worries..when he comes next time you can meet him and request him to go deep.

Quote:

I acknowledge these concepts but not through the lens of Advaita Vedanta. ... have already explained above that the jeev gets new or refined antashkaran in the Sharam Khand. I don't know all this talk about Kaaran Sareer or whatever. This all is not written in Gurbani. I have read about it in Hindu books and it seems like Sikhs have just copied it from there. Gurbani makes it clear that Mann is jyot saroop. Please look at the following pankiti:
First of, please tell me how and why the impersonal, carefree Brahm of Advaita Vedanta would be with the mann of the jeev, as stated in Gurbani pankiti above? Secondly, mann has been called jyot saroop. Then how can this mann not be with the jeev and Aatma when it's one with Vaheguru. Please ponder upon the following pankiti that clearly proves that Vaheguru too has Mann:



It's clear from the above stated pankitis that Vaheguru too has mann but Advaita Vedanta states to the contrary and you too mentioned that jeev too is of 5 elements. Mann is part of the jeev and is jyot saroop as stated above. As you can see, Gurmat philosophy of being is quite contrary to the one being preached by Sants through the lens of Advaita Vedanta.

You may not know all this talk about karan sareer as you said but karan sareer is third layer of the body. Gurbani talks about first, two layer
It's absurd to reject three layer of the body but acknowledge first two. In fact gurbani may not mention karan sirar directly but it mentions jagrath, saupan, sukhopat, these three avasthas are directly linked with three layers of body, panj kosh.

Now going to gurbani quote you provided, its excellent quote, explains it all by shabads like jot saroop, mool painchan.

Man tu jot saroop hai apna mool paichain ||



Advaita beleives avidya has diseased mind(mann) which in its orginal form was unman, guru maharaj giving updesh to mind with avidya - o ignorant mind, you are infact jot saroop...because of avidya you don't realize it but in fact you are jot saroop, recnognize yourself.

To back it up all claim above on man which has antish karan and made out of five elements cannot be jot saroop and how vahiguroo cannot have mann but unman(atam chaitanta) here are tuks, once antish karan is gone and man becomes unman then only they can taste their own atma/paratma.

As gurbani mentions describing state of bhramgyanis:

Man asaadh sadhai jan koe
Man maraie bin bhagat na hoi ||


ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਪੰਚ ਤਤ ਕੋ ਜੀਉ ॥
eihu man panch tat ko jeeo ||
This mind is the life of the five elements.

ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਲੇ ਜਉ ਉਨਮਨਿ ਰਹੈ ॥
eihu man lae jo ounaman rehai ||
When this mind is channeled, and guided to enlightenment,

ਉਨਮਨਿ ਮਨੂਆ ਸੁੰਨਿ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਭਾਗੀ ॥
ounaman manooaa sunn samaanaa dhubidhhaa dhuramath bhaagee ||
The disturbed mind has been absorbed in the Lord; duality and evil-mindedness have run away.

2 Gaurhee Saint Kabir
ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਅਨਭਉ ਇਕੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ॥੪॥੨॥੪੬॥
kahu kabeer anabho eik dhaekhiaa raam naam liv laagee ||4||2||46||


ਜਗੁ ਜੀਤਉ ਗੁਰ ਦੁਆਰਿ ਖੇਲਹਿ ਸਮਤ ਸਾਰਿ ਰਥੁ ਉਨਮਨਿ ਲਿਵ ਰਾਖਿ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰਿ ॥
ag jeetho gur dhuaar khaelehi samath saar rathh ounaman liv raakh nirankaar ||

Quote:

I think what you mean above was Eh Parpanch (not Sargun) Parbrahm kee Leela||

I am sorry about the quote above, i wasnt sure if gurbani calls it parpanch or sargun saroop. After little bit of research i couldnt find it so it was best not to write gurbani mentions this - sargun parbhram kee laal since i wasnt sure, i just wrote the line hoping someone would correct me and you did..thanks much.!



To all the readers who are reading this vichar, here are some final thoughts on this topic:


- I admit my knowledge in vikayaran is not very great but i m learning. I acknowledge its importantance. However, i also acknowledge based on reading book by looking at agam agadh bodh of gurbani, vikayaran(rules) niyam are made for gurbani are not accurate thats where sampardai's paramparik arths comes in gives valid interpertation of gurbani.


- As you can see from previous discussion especially the one i posted from tapoban forum titled - Condition of bhagats in Vahiguroo darbar, some of the points were bought up again which were adressed by jsingh already. However, i m glad that kulbir singh bought fwd up those points in this discussion because that lead me to do more khoj on this, during this khoj i came across with some stunning gurbani quotes above which totally debunks the "one rule theory that all bhramgyanis have their own vajood(indentity), individualstic conscinesss when they leave their body". It is even clearer after reading beautiful gurbani quotes that gurbani supports meta reality, based on your surti.

- From previous debates, few stuff were not answered by jsingh as why there is need for second merge when they already attained bhramgyan in this earth. After some khoj, this is where i disagree a bit with jsingh. There are quotes likes zeeman zaaman kai bhikaie samast ek jot hai na ghat na bhat hai na ghat bat hot hai || and other quotes above which proves that gurmukh bhramgyanis are fully merged with nirankar, all bhramgyani does tyaag their chola(body) this upadi, thats it, there is no second merge they are already merged with vahiguroo while living in this body, after bhramgyan there man has became unman, antish karans (karama di bhand) is destroyed, they are above karam (paap na paun) as explained in gurbani quote above by bhagat kabir ji.

- I too have provided have gurbani quotes to back up most of veechar i shared in this discussion. At the end of day, I m in no way to convince kulbir singh and other preconceived loyality to their group mindset. I have no intentions making people beleif on total merge theory where vajood being lost with gurbani quotes explaining destruction. Kulbir singh beleifs/stance same 3 years ago, same now, same will even after giving up his body because thats his surti there is no problem there as gurbani mentions it clear. However,when one tries to imply that all the bhramgyanis have their vajood(indentity), conscicouness when they leave this body thats where one's view contradicts in gurbani as gurbani supports meta reality and have given updesh to based on person's surti.

its a long post, i didn't proof read it properly. Bhul Chuk Maaphi for any mistakes in gurbani or if i said any koraie bachans.

VahiguroojikakhalsaVahiguroojikifateh!

~Puratan MangalCharan ~

Firstly meditating upon Aatam Dev
Nirmal Jot, of Sat Chit Anand Svaroop

Then I bow to the lotus feet of Ishtadev
SatGuru Maharaj, Dasaan Patshahian di Jot

Finally I offer salutations to my Gurdev/Murshid
, under whose guidance.
All efforts blossom forth

Sat Sri Akaal !



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2008 09:31AM by admin.

You did not post any aarths to which viyakaran cannot be applied. Every language has viyakaran and viyakaran in Gurbani is applicable all the time. Your poor understanding of viyakaran unables you to realize this fact. Whether Shabads are written in context, metaphors etc viyakaran will always apply because no language is written without grammar. If scholars have not understood viyakaran completely then it is not the fault of viyakaran. It is like saying Gurbani has not been understood 100% by anyone so Gurbani is not valid or false. This is very foolish.

Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji is correct when he says "Lakh Kror bandhan will go away by doing japp of Naam" but these meanings do not apply to the panktis in Sukhmani Sahib because the word ਬੰਧੁਨ does not appear in Gurbani. Do a search and study the difference between ਬੰਧਨ and ਬੰਧੁ ਨ. Here viyakaran is very helpful in understanding what Gurbani really means. I do not believe Gurbani is limited to one meaning only but I also believe viyakran will always apply even to antreev meanings.

"I have already discuss it with your student- bijla singh in quite detail on sikhsangat forum"

Please don't make foolish assumptions without any proof. My teacher is Guru Sahib because I obey Guru Sahib only, and to clear my doubts I ask gursikhs, refer to teekas and other books. I also listen to katha done by Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji to understand wide range of approaches to Gurbani. I would be narrow minded if I only wished to learn only one side and not other thoughts on Gurbani. I ask questions on this forum because some people here are more qualified to answer what Bhai Sahib has written than anyone else on other forums.

I will leave rest of your points to be answered by kulbir singh, if he wishes.

Veer N3O Singh jeeo,

I will respond to your post soon but I could not help respond to your comment about Bijla Singh being my chela. Here is what you wrote:

Quote:

I have already discuss it with your student- bijla singh in quite detail on sikhsangat forum

1) First of all, what gave you the impression that I am in the business of making chelas? If I myself can live the life of chela of Guru Sahib, I would be immensely satisfied. People whom I socialize with and talk to on regular basis can be counted on my fingers. I am not a public person, nor I have a social circle. From home I go to work and from work to home. On the weekend the only destination for me to visit is Gurdwara Tapoban Sahib. That's it. I don't have a third destination to go. No stores, no parks, no theates, no bazaars, no restaurants, no other public places, no nothing. Where would I find poor Bijla Singh to make my chela?

2) I don't even know who Veer Bijla Singh is. I have never met him and I believe had only one or two email conversations with him, about a couple of Gurbani pankitis.

The comment was unfair to both of us.

Kulbir Singh

Gurfateh Kulbir singh ji,

Accept my humblest apologies for assumption made by me above which i shouldn't have done.

will look fwd to your reply and response back if there is anything new to discuss.


Gurfateh Ji.

~Puratan MangalCharan ~

Firstly meditating upon Aatam Dev
Nirmal Jot, of Sat Chit Anand Svaroop

Then I bow to the lotus feet of Ishtadev
SatGuru Maharaj, Dasaan Patshahian di Jot

Finally I offer salutations to my Gurdev/Murshid
, under whose guidance.
All efforts blossom forth

Sat Sri Akaal !

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ
Khalsa Jeeo,

just before the final Mundavnee (i.e. before Salok Mehla 5) appears the last Dohra of Siree Guroo Granth Sahib Jee blessed upon us by Siree Guroo Tegh Bahadur Sahib Jee, The King of Shaheeds.

please bear in mind that immediately before this Dohra, the Salok that features ends with the following du-panktee:


ਜੋ ਉਪਜਿਓ ਸੋ ਬਿਨਸਿ ਹੈ ਪਰੋ ਆਜੁ ਕੈ ਕਾਲਿ ॥
jo oupajiou so binas hai paro aaj kai kaal ||
WHATEVER HAS BEEN CREATED SHA'LL BE DESTROYED; everyone shall perish, today or tomorrow.

ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਇ ਲੇ ਛਾਡਿ ਸਗਲ ਜੰਜਾਲ ॥52॥
naanak har gun gaae lae shhaadd sagal ja(n)jaal ||52||
O Nanak, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, and give up all other entanglements. ||52||


the Dohra continues with this theme (instability/non-permanence of all creation, importance of merging with Vaheguroo) and expands upon it. please contemplate the following panktee which appears within this final Dohra:


ਨਾਮੁ ਰਹਿਓ ਸਾਧੂ ਰਹਿਓ ਰਹਿਓ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ॥
naam rehiou saadhhoo rehiou rehiou gur gobi(n)dh ||
The Naam remains; the Gurmukhs remain; the Guru, the Lord of the Universe, remains.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਇਹ ਜਗਤ ਮੈ ਕਿਨ ਜਪਿਓ ਗੁਰ ਮੰਤੁ ॥56॥
kahu naanak eih jagath mai kin japiou gur ma(n)th ||56||
Says Nanak, how rare are those who chant the Guru's Mantra in this world. ||56||

(ang 1429)


therefore, however we wish to interpret this or understand it, we must all accept that three inseperable entities have been described as 'remaining' post-destruction of the visible universe.

this clearly suggests that these entities can be distinguished to some sort of extent. these entities are Vaheguroo, Guroo and Sadhoos (Gurmukhs-Bhagats).

in effect they are all actually One. it has recently kept popping into my mind for various reasons that the word Gurmukh has been used in GurbaaNee, in various forms, to refer to all three of these entities...however, the above tells us that upon some sort of level these are identifiable as three.

veer kulbir singh jee, perhaps you could discuss this panktee in the light of viyakarN as there may be different ways to interpret it. questions/conclusions that jump to mind are:

- naam refers to gurmantar here; naam here is a singular noun, in both the first and second part of this du-panktee. this highlights the vast gulf between kirtam naam and gurmat naam. kirtam naam are man-made words, albeit the purest words man has ever conjured-up, which helps him get very close to Vaheguroo. however, these will bedstroyed when the universe immerses back into where it came from, Vaheguroo. at that point only Naam, Gur-Mant, will remain.

we know that this Naam is Self-Created and Self-Existent...beyond spoken words, it is Vaheguroo's Presence and Self-Expressed Kalaa. Gursikhs really do a disservice to Maharaaj Jee by trying to lump Gurmant (Gurmat Naam) with Kirtam Naam...i suppose this is His Bhana so who am i to complain :-)

- it could be argued that the term sadhoo may not be a plural term; that it is singular and refers to Siree Guroo Sahib Jee - i personally think it is plural and that it therefore refers to Gurmukh-Bhagats; perhaps we don't even need viyakarN to prove this. the preceding du-panktee to this one is:


ਸੰਗ ਸਖਾ ਸਭਿ ਤਜਿ ਗਏ ਕੋਊ ਨ ਨਿਬਹਿਓ ਸਾਥਿ ॥
sa(n)g sakhaa sabh thaj geae kooo n nibehiou saathh ||
My associates and companions have all deserted me; no one remains with me.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਇਹ ਬਿਪਤਿ ਮੈ ਟੇਕ ਏਕ ਰਘੁਨਾਥ ॥55॥
kahu naanak eih bipath mai ttaek eaek raghunaathh ||55||
Says Nanak, in this tragedy, the Lord alone is my Support. ||55||


therefore, it is obvious that these immortal and stable Gurmukh-Bhagats, the Rangle Sajjan that will stand with us here in Lok and there in Par-Lok, are being referred to in contrast to our temporary and unstable worldy non-Gurmukh associates.

what can we learn form all this?

perhaps the most most important thing to note is that the drop returns to The Ocean; no-one is arguing against this. but that doesn't mean that the drop has forever disappeared. it is now One with The Ocean and has access to the vast greatness of The Ocean...but Vaheguroo is no ordinary Ocean...

that drop is still discernible - it has not been destroyed by joining The Ocean - it has simply been made greater by becoming part of something which is the greatest. perhaps this is why the stage where one realises Aatmaa is different to that stage when one realises Par-Aatmaa...the former is definitely the lower of the two stages.

even if Sadhoo did refer to Siree Guroo Sahib Jee, as some may argue, it would still prove that when Milaap with Par-Aaatmaa occurs, individual Aatmaas have their own existence.

- gur gobind - both are nouns. perhaps only Vaheguroo is being referred to here via a compound term - gur-gobond. however, one could argue that Gur refers to Siree Guroo Sahib Jee whilst Gobind refers to Vaheguroo. regardless, They are one and The Same so no matter. or perhaps Maharaaj Jee is referring to Themself within the term Sadhoo? veer kulbir singh jee, any viyakarN thoughts here?

- by saying: kahu naanak eih jagath mai kin japiou gur ma(n)th...Maharaaj Jee is effectively telling us that only those rare few will realise this reality, that only The Gurmukh (Vaheguroo, Guroo, Gursikhs) will remain, who truly jap Gur-Mant and are Gur-Mant. it is for the Gursikh Gurmukh to do Milaap before dissolution and come to know The Truth regarding that which exists beyond all dissolution - the first to have no need to do Milaap as that is a given.

Gurmukh-Vaheguroo is The Primal and Gurmukh-Guroo is Vaheguroo's Witness since Creation. this is because in order to Self-Reveal within Created Creation, and not to rely on hearsay, Vaheguroo manifested and Self-Revealed on earth as Siree Guroo Nanak Sahib Jee - Bhai Gurdaas Jee (and Bhai Sahib Randheer Singh via his tract 'Is Worship of Siree Guroo Granth Sahib Jee Idol Worship?) helps us inderstand that only Vaheguroo can reveal themselves as Vaheguroo to us - no-one lese has the capability as all revealed Dharam and thoughts are Kachee knoweldge and hearsay. this is the job of Guroo and this is why Guroo had to be, and is, Vaheguroo Themself. Gurmukh-Bhagat is They who realise that their Aatmaa is Vaheguroo/Guroo which can ONLY as occur as a result of becoming direct Bhagats of Vaheguroo through Guroo who is Vaheguroo.

- veer kulbir singh jee, how would you do bishraams of this panktee - the word kin has left me in a bit of doubt. i'm thinking it can only be one of two ways:

kahu naanak , eih jagath mai kin ; japiou gur ma(n)th ||56||

or...

kahu naanak , eih jagath mai ; kin japiou gur ma(n)th ||56||

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2008 06:45AM by admin.

Quote:

As long as we don't associate Gurmat with Advaita Vedanta, I am fine with it. Gurmat is unique and nothing in the world comes even near it. To describe Gurmat through the lenses of Vedant or any other worldly philosophy is what I am against. Gurmat can be described through Gurbani, Bhai Gurdaas jee's Baani, Bhai Nandlal jee's baani and by Gursikhs who have lived Gurmat all their lives. Where does Vedant come in picture when talking about Gurmat? The root of Vedant is Vedas and these Vedas have been rejected by Guru Sahib in Gurbani, then what to talk about Vedant?

Where does Gurbani reject the Vedas? Gurbani clarifies that Vedas cannot give you Mukti, but also that Vedas are wonderful and teach us the mukti comes from Naam jap. Moreover, Bhai Gurdas Ji was a Sanskrit scholar. His vaaran talks about Vedas, stories from Ramayan and Bhagavad-Gita and even things from Shiva Sutras like kechari mudra. Where do you get Advaita as a philosoiphy has no impact whatsoever on Gurbani? Much of Gurbani contains references to Gaudiya Vaishnavism in Naams of the Sarguna, why not the Achint abedabeda of Vaishnavism as well, which Gurbani seems to support in the very concept of niragun-sargun as well as Dvaita and Advaita philosophies of the multiplicity being the One, and the All-pervading?

Since Sikhism is rooted within Indic culture and context, and this terminology and these philosophies are really not anything new... unique yes, but not new, why would Advaita per se, not be Gurmat? Why would Vaishnavism not be Gurmat? After all doesn't vaaran of Bhai Gurdas Ji say the Vaheguru Gurmantra is V= Vasudeyv, Vishnu, H = Hari Krishna, G = Gobinda, R= Raam? If this is not Vaishnav Naams of God but some new unique "Sikh Panth" formulation which really translates as nirguna Eko Braman, we know that can't be true since no one can name the nirguna. Nirguna is beyond language and concepts of mind and hence requires Turiya consciousness of dasm duar which is opened to perceive the darshan of Vaheguru without kalpas in nirbikalpa samadhi. Not only that but other pauris of Gurbani clearly praise the Das Avataaras and Vishnu as the Supreme Lord, and so this must be sargun saroop of nirguna. If any philosophy comes closest to matching Gurbani I see that as being Gaudiya Vaishnavism. So it makes perfect sense for Gurbani to deiscuss both Dvaita personal bhakti relationship with sarguna, as well as merging or mukti acknowledging all that exists is only He.

Why would this be anti-Gurmat when it is clearly discussed in Gurbani and has definite and traceable relationship to bhagti Vaishnavism of the time?

~bhul chak maaf karni ji

"all revealed Dharam and thoughts are Kachee knoweldge and hearsay"

With all due respect Atma Singh Veerji, I think this statement is a little extreme.

How can Dharam be both revealed and Kachaa?

Bhai Gurdas Ji says:

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਭੁਲਾਇ ਕੈ ਮੋਹੇ ਲਾਲਚ ਦੁਨੀ ਸੈਤਾਣੇ ।

He clearly says that by forgetting the Bayd and K'teb - the followers have been incticed into greed by Satan. Does this by default not imply the Bayd and K'teb are therefore guides of truth?

Why would Guru Arjun Dev Ji say:

ਕੁਰਾਣੁ ਕਤੇਬ ਦਿਲ ਮਾਹਿ ਕਮਾਹੀ ॥

Why would Bhagat Kabir Ji say:

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥

I am not quoting these tuks out of context - I am aware the shabds talk about hypocrisy of the followers - but that is a different subject.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji says:

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥

Guru Arjun Dev Ji says:

ਸਾਸਤ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ਮਹਾ ਪੁਰਖਨ ਇਉ ਕਹਿਆ ॥
ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਭਜਨ ਨਾਹੀ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ਸੂਖੁ ਨ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਲਹਿਆ ॥੧॥

Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji says:

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਪੜੇ ਕੋ ਇਹ ਗੁਨ ਸਿਮਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਮਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

And

ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਜਾਸ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵਤ ਤਾ ਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਹੀਐ ਮੋ ਧਰੁ ਰੇ ॥

Does the following quote from the bible sound like hearsay:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Admin Note: Harjas Kaur, please use lower case, when using the 'quote' function. Otherwise it will not work and the admin had to manually fix the 'quote' notation in this post of yours

Quote:

this clearly suggests that these entities can be distinguished to some sort of extent. these entities are Vaheguroo, Guroo and Sadhoos (Gurmukhs-Bhagats).
in effect they are all actually One. it has recently kept popping into my mind for various reasons that the word Gurmukh has been used in GurbaaNee, in various forms, to refer to all three of these entities...however, the above tells us that upon some sort of level these are identifiable as three.

Why would the Oneness of the All-pervading be limited to only these three categories, Vaheguroo, Guroo and Gurmukhs-bhagats?


Doesn't Gurbani say otherwise?


ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਰਵਿ ਰਹੇ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ਕਾ ਮੇਲੁ ॥
jeh dhaekhaa theh rav rehae siv sakathee kaa mael ||
Wherever I look, I see the Lord pervading there, in the union of Shiva and Shakti, of consciousness and matter.
~SGGS Ji p. 21



ਵਰਨ ਰੂਪ ਵਰਤਹਿ ਸਭ ਤੇਰੇ ॥
varan roop varathehi sabh thaerae ||
In all colors and forms, You are pervading.
~SGGS Ji p. 120



ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਏਕੁ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਜਲਿ ਥਲਿ ਮਹੀਅਲਿ ਪੂਰੇ ॥੪॥
ghatt ghatt eaek varathadhaa jal thhal meheeal poorae ||4||
In each and every heart, the One Lord is pervading. He is totally permeating the water, the land, and the sky. ||4||

ਪਾਪ ਬਿਨਾਸਨੁ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਸੰਤਨ ਕੀ ਧੂਰੇ ॥੫॥
paap binaasan saeviaa pavithr santhan kee dhhoorae ||5||
I serve the Destroyer of sin, and I am sanctified by the dust of the feet of the Saints. ||5||
~SGGS Ji p. 133




ਉਲਟਿਓ ਕਮਲੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ ॥
oulattiou kamal breham beechaar ||
The inverted heart-lotus has been turned upright, through reflective meditation on God.

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਧਾਰ ਗਗਨਿ ਦਸ ਦੁਆਰਿ ॥
anmrith dhhaar gagan dhas dhuaar ||
From the Sky of the Tenth Gate, the Ambrosial Nectar trickles down.

ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਬੇਧਿਆ ਆਪਿ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ॥੧॥
thribhavan baedhhiaa aap muraar ||1||
The Lord Himself is pervading the three worlds. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 153




ਸਭੁ ਕੀਤਾ ਤੇਰਾ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਤੂੰ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ॥
sabh keethaa thaeraa varathadhaa thoon antharajaamee ||
You made them all; You are all-pervading. You are the Inner-knower, the Searcher of hearts.

ਹਮ ਜੰਤ ਵਿਚਾਰੇ ਕਿਆ ਕਰਹ ਸਭੁ ਖੇਲੁ ਤੁਮ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥
ham janth vichaarae kiaa kareh sabh khael thum suaamee ||
What can these wretched creatures do? This whole drama is Yours, O Lord and Master.
~SGGS Ji p. 167




ਸੁਰਗ ਪਇਆਲ ਮਿਰਤ ਭੂਅ ਮੰਡਲ ਸਰਬ ਸਮਾਨੋ ਏਕੈ ਓਹੀ ॥
surag paeiaal mirath bhooa manddal sarab samaano eaekai ouhee ||
In the heavenly paradise, in the nether regions of the underworld, on the planet earth and throughout the galaxies, the One Lord is pervading everywhere.

ਸਿਵ ਸਿਵ ਕਰਤ ਸਗਲ ਕਰ ਜੋਰਹਿ ਸਰਬ ਮਇਆ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਤੇਰੀ ਦੋਹੀ ॥੧॥
siv siv karath sagal kar jorehi sarab maeiaa thaakur thaeree dhohee ||1||
Everyone calls upon You with their palms pressed together, saying, ""Shiva, Shiva"". O Merciful Lord and Master, everyone cries out for Your Help. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 207




ਉਆ ਕਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਕਾਹੂ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
ouaa kaa anth n kaahoo paaeiaa ||
No one has ever found His limit.

ਕੀਟ ਹਸਤਿ ਮਹਿ ਪੂਰ ਸਮਾਨੇ ॥
keett hasath mehi poor samaanae ||
In the ant and in the elephant, He is totally pervading.
~SGGS Ji p. 252




ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥
guramukh naadhan guramukh vaedhan guramukh rehiaa samaaee ||
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.

ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥
gur eesar gur gorakh baramaa gur paarabathee maaee ||
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.
~SGGS Ji p. 2




ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰਿ ਕੈ ਆਪਣੀ ਆਪੇ ਲਏ ਸਮਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੨੧॥
kirapaa kar kai aapanee aapae leae samaae jeeo ||21||
Showering His Mercy, He has blended me into Himself. ||21||

ਗੋਪੀ ਨੈ ਗੋਆਲੀਆ ॥
gopee nai goaaleeaa ||
You are the Gopis, the milk-maids of Krishna; You are the sacred river Jamunaa; You are Krishna, the herdsman.

ਤੁਧੁ ਆਪੇ ਗੋਇ ਉਠਾਲੀਆ ॥
thudhh aapae goe outhaaleeaa ||
You Yourself support the world.
~SGGS Ji p. 73



And in clear praise of sargun saroop of Hari Krishna Gurbani says:



ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਕਾਨੁ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਨਿ ਆਪੇ ਗਊ ਚਰਾਹਾ ॥
aapae gopee kaan hai piaaraa ban aapae goo charaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself is the milk-maid and Krishna; He Himself herds the cows in the woods.

ਆਪੇ ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਵੰਸੁ ਵਜਾਹਾ ॥
aapae saaval sundharaa piaaraa aapae vans vajaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself is the blue-skinned, handsome one; He Himself plays on His flute.

ਕੁਵਲੀਆ ਪੀੜੁ ਆਪਿ ਮਰਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪਿ ਪਚਾਹਾ ॥੨॥
kuvaleeaa peerr aap maraaeidhaa piaaraa kar baalak roop pachaahaa ||2||
The Beloved Himself took the form of a child, and destroyed Kuwalia-peer, the mad elephant. ||2||

ਆਪਿ ਅਖਾੜਾ ਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਆਪਿ ਚੋਜਾਹਾ ॥
aap akhaarraa paaeidhaa piaaraa kar vaekhai aap chojaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself sets the stage; He performs the plays, and He Himself watches them.

ਕਰਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਚੰਡੂਰੁ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੁ ਮਾਰਾਹਾ ॥
kar baalak roop oupaaeidhaa piaaraa chanddoor kans kaes maaraahaa ||
The Beloved Himself assumed the form of the child, and killed the demons Chandoor, Kansa and Kaysee.

ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਲੁ ਭੰਨੈ ਮੂਰਖ ਮੁਗਧਾਹਾ ॥੩॥
aapae hee bal aap hai piaaraa bal bhannai moorakh mugadhhaahaa ||3||
The Beloved Himself, by Himself, is the embodiment of power; He shatters the power of the fools and idiots. ||3||

ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਵਸਿ ਆਪੇ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਹਥਾਹਾ ॥
sabh aapae jagath oupaaeidhaa piaaraa vas aapae jugath hathhaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself created the whole world. In His hands He holds the power of the ages.
~SGGS Ji p. 606


~Bhul chak maaf



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2008 06:44AM by admin.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

veer harcharan singh jee,

firstly, we must all have faith that if GurbaaNee/Bhai Gurdaas Jee's Vaaraa(n) seem self-contradictory, the misunderstanding is ALWAYS with us and we must do further GurbaaNee and Naam Abhiyaas to rectify our understanding.

bhai gurdaas jee also says the following elsewhere:


ਅਪੜਿ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਹੰਘਈ ਸੁਣਿ ਸੁਣਿ ਆਖਣ ਆਖਿ ਸੁਣਾਈ॥
ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਪਰਗਟੀ ਆਈ ॥੫॥
None can reach Him, ALL TALK about Him is on the basis of HEARSAY.
That Lord has become MANIFEST in the form of the True Guru.(5)

also:


ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਆਕਾਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪੁ ਅਨੂਪ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ॥
ਵੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਅਗੋਚਰਾ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਣਾਇਆ॥
ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨ ਚਾਰਿ ਮਜਹਬਾ ਚਰਣ ਕਵਲ ਸਰਣਾਗਤਿ ਆਇਆ॥
ਪਾਰਸਿ ਪਰਸਿ ਅਪਰਸ ਜਗਿ ਅਸਟਧਾਤੁ ਇਕੁ ਧਾਤੁ ਕਰਾਇਆ॥

The formless Lord has been beholden in the form of the light (in Guru Nanak and other Gurus).
The Gurus recited Word-Guru as Vaheguru who is BEYOND the Vedas and Katebas (the Semitic scriptures).
Therefore all the four varnas and all four Semitic religions have sought the shelter of the lotus feet of the Guru.
When the Gurus in the form of Philosopher’s stone touched them, that alloy of eight metal changed into ONE METAL (Gold in the form of Sikhism).


also:


ਬੇਦ ਗਿਰੰਥ ਗੁਰ ਹਟਿ ਹੈ ਜਿਸੁ ਲਗਿ ਭਵਜਲ ਪਾਰਿ ਉਤਾਰਾ॥
ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਬਾਝੁ ਨ ਬੁਝੀਐ ਜਿਚਰੁ ਧਰੇ ਨ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਅਵਤਾਰਾ॥

From that knowledge of the Vedas which gets man across the world ocean even the knowledgeable people get away.
So long God DOES NOT DESCEND on earth in the form of True Guru, no mystery can be UNDERSTOOD.


from the above it is crystal clear that:

- Vaheguroo who is Unapproachable and Inaccessible cannot be 'reached' no matter how much anyone has tried in the past or will try in the future.

- Therefore, Vaheguroo could only be known, and directly 'reach us', if They were to become Pargat (manifest) upon earth.

- Satguroo Sahib Jee is Vaheguroo's Pargat Presence upon earth.

- Before Satguroo Sahib Jee, all spiritual knowledge was and still is hearsay i.e. kachee/half-baked. it may be useful (just as Kachee rotee will still give you some nutrition) but it is not the Tat i.e. quintessence.

Bhagat Kabeer Sahib Jee says:


ਕਹਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਭਲੇ ਅਸਵਾਰਾ || ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਤੇ ਰਹਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਰਾ ॥3॥31॥

Says Kabeer, those who remain detached from the Vedas, the Koran and the Bible are the best riders. ||3||31||


when we read the whole Shabad, we realise that Bhagat Sahib Jee is telling us that Prem-Bhagtee is the only way to realise Vaheguroo. Vaheguroo cannot be received nor experienced through adherence to these scriptures which are actually devoid of Prem-Bhagtee Philosophy (i.e. Gurmat) and it's implications. incidentally, Bhagat Sahib is perhaps the most critical out of all the Mehls/Bhagat Sahibs re: other scriptures.

so, the big question is:

are there INHERENT CONTRADICTIONS within GurbaaNee/Gurmat or not?

this is where Jeevan-less scholars/Vidhvaans become unstuck due to their intellectual and dry experience-less/faithless mis-interpretations..nonetheless, they have to quickly pander to their own 'quick-fix' Vichaaraa(n) in order to save face - they tell themselves: "Oh my mind, don't leave me! I need you to show the world that I understand!". in this way they chase after their ego and get more and more stuck in the swamp of duality where faith is nowhere to be found.

but it is this situation also where Gurmukh Bhagats become free of all doubt and become content with the truth due to personal experience and Guroo-Blessed Intuitive and Spontaneous Sojhee - their mind is firmly told: "leave me - you have no place here! Gurmat rules here". they avoid duality and beg for Sojhee from Maharaaj Jee alone, leaving all their assumptions and presumptions behind.

we must all come directly to Siree Guroo Sahib Jee and put in the effort if we are truly to start doing Vichaar of Gurmat/GurbaaNee. it is then that the overall 'Gurmat Context', within which we naturally come to understand the Pankteeaa(n) you have highlighted, becomes apparent and ultimately, the key to really understanding just Who and What Siree Guroo Sahib Jee really is. the more GurbaaNee and Naam Abhiyaas, the greater GurbaaNee-based knowledge we will receive.

i personally have yet to come across one Panktee which contradicts the notion that without Siree Satguroo Sahib Jee one can attain Milaap with Vaheguroo. why? because the Kasvatee (touch-stone of truth) being used is GurbaaNee and i must CONTINUOUSLY apply all my limited interpretations regarding GurbaaNee back against this Kasvatee, on an ongoing basis. through Maharaaj Jee's Kirpa, my doubts on this path have been and continue to be removed in this way.


ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਬਾਣੀ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਹੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਅਗਮ ਅਥਾਹੁ ਹੈ ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਸਚਾ ਸੋਇ ॥

Wondrous! Wondrous! is the BaaNee, the Word, it is Nirankaar (Formless Vaheguroo). There is no other as great as BaaNee/Nirankaar.
Wondrous! Wondrous! Vaheguroo is unfathomable and inaccessible. Wondrous! Wondrous! is the True One.


my interpretation regarding this Du-Panktee is:

- GurbaaNee, the Pothee which is 'Parmeshar Ka Thaan' (the place where the Universal Vaheguroo resides'), is Nirankaar (Formless Vaheguroo)...because only GurbaaNee qualifies as Akath dee Katha (Explanation regarding the Unexplainable) - because it explains and lets us immerse within the Self-Revealed Guns (attributes/qualities) of Nirankaar.

- These Attributes are One and the Same - the Formless can only be known via Their Attributes; therefore GurbaaNee is the Manifest Nirankaar...the seemingly impossible happening has happened with the advent of Siree Guroo Nanak Sahib Jee - the Pargat Guroo-Jyot Form of Vaheguroo and now the Eternal Existence of Siree Guroo Granth Sahib Jee.

- They who are ਅਗਮ ਅਥਾਹੁ (Un-realisable, Un-reachable), Vaheguroo, the Mysterious One, They have reached out to us in the Form of Manifest Eternal Truth - Shabad Guroo. Truth is and always has been the Form of Nirankaar Vaheguroo and always will be. This True One is Truly ਵਾਹੁ!!!

veer jee, it would be silly for me to continue and offer my opinion, which is a result of trying to assimilate GurbaaNee in my own way.


ਆਦਿਸਚੁਜੁਗਾਦਿਸਚੁ ॥
ਹੈਭੀਸਚੁਨਾਨਕਹੋਸੀਭੀਸਚੁ ॥੧॥

The Truth before time, The Truth when time began
The Truth Here and Now; Nanak, The Truth Eternally.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ