Quote:"since Sikhi is derived from all the wisdom of the Vedas according to Gurbani. "
'derived'? i dont think thats correct, nowhere have i heard or seen it said that sikhi is derived from Vedas. If that was so Guru Nanak would not have rejected the sacred thread ceremony.
Sikhi came direct from Prabh/Vaheguru.
Derived: "Stemming from an original source." If Gurbani says Guru is the wisdom of the Vedas, and the Vedas are among the earliest scriptures in existance, then it is clear Gurubani is derived from original wisdom in scriptures revealed by Sruti to the rishis. Only when you try to do a tap dance to make Gurubani completely new and original, in order to politically dissociate it from it's Indic basis, which is derived from Indic spiritual teachings such as found in Vedas and Puranas and unmistakably spoken of throughout Gurbani, then you have to conclude Gurbani teaching is not something new... but ancient. It is ancient revealed truth taught in an entirely new way by the same Divine Jyot which has been eternally shining through the ages (yugas).
Or are you suggesting that mankind was lost and without light, without hope, without mukti...until Guru Nanak was born to become the one and only Satguru for all time? Because Gurbani itself says that God's Light has been shining through the ages, and even in the das avataaras. If Gurbani says the nirgun Paramjyothi was shining in the das avataaras, why would any Sikh say that Bhagavan Krishna's Bhagavata doesn't shine light of God? If Gurbani says Guruji is avataar for Kaliyuga, and Hari Krishna was avataar for Dwapara yuga, how can Bhagavad-Gita NOT be related to Gurbani when clearly the same Paramjyothi has descended into sansaara through avataaras?
Quote:ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਦੀਸੈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਸਾਰੁ ॥
guramukh dheesai breham pasaar ||
The Gurmukh sees God pervading everywhere.
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣੀਆਂ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੁ ॥
guramukh thrai guneeaaan bisathhaar ||
The Gurmukh knows that the universe is the extension of the three gunas, the three dispositions.
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦ ਬੇਦ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
guramukh naadh baedh beechaar ||
The Gurmukh reflects on the Sound-current of the Naad, and the wisdom of the Vedas.
ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਘੋਰ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ॥੧॥
bin gur poorae ghor andhhaar ||1||
Without the Perfect Guru, there is only pitch-black darkness. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 1270
A logical proof for this is Guru is nirgun God, the Creator. Every truth is derived from original universal Reality, which God is. Only political movements like Singh Sabha fully estrange from original sanatan origin of Gurbani. I do not even believe it is possible for someone to have proper understanding of Gurbani teaching without learning some basics of Vedic teaching, otherwise the interpretations of Gurbani will reflect modern political constructions and formulations quite out of character with revealed truth, and hence... wrong.
As to the sakhi about Guru Nanak rejecting Janeo, and hence rejecting ritualistic Hindu religion, that is a material misstatement of the Singh Sabha reform intellectuals. First, Guru Nanak Dev Ji wasn't a brahmin. Brahmins wear a janeo which is made from silk. Kshatriyas wear a janeo which is made from cotton, to denote lowered social station. Shudras don't even get to wear a janeo. It is fully in keeping with Vaishnava reform of Ramanuja, Madhva, Nimbarka, Vallabha, Chaitanya that Guru Nanak Dev Ji rejected ritualistic caste distinctions when it comes to authentic bhakti. Nothing in this action, or correction against political brahminism moves Guru Nanak Dev Ji out of the Hindu fold as a Vaishnav, because it is completely in accord with pre-existing Vaishnav reform against caste discrimination of the day.
Now this is not the same as the counter-reform of Tulsidas trying to brahminize Vaishnavism. But Vaishnavism did in fact reform making distinctions between castes on the basis of spiritual seeking, going so far as to say what Guru Nanak Dev Ji said in Gurbani, that a true brahmin wasn't born but was the sincere devotee who seeks God as bairagi. This teaching is also from original Vedas. So we see Gurbani in essence restored the original truths of Vedas. Nothing here contradicts Vedanta. And if we are to insert a little logic, the Vaishnava bhagats whose bani has been included in Gurubani and elevated to status of Gurgaddi... were the famous low caste bhakti Vaishnavs such as Kabir Ji, Namdev,
Ravidas, etc. So clearly Guru Sahib was acknowledging the spiritual correctness of this teaching... which happened to have been a reform movement existing before physical birth of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, and therefore cannot be swept under a political carpet to pretend Vaishnavism did not reform caste discrimination and only Sikh Guruji did.
Another tactic of Singh Sabha movement is to lump all Hinduism together to reflect what British Raj denounced it as... sati, caste discrimination, political ritualized brahminism, etc. And they characterized with false generalizations in the same way to Maharaja Dulip Singh in order to instigate his shame in Indic spirituality and conversion to Christianity. This is the mentality behind such flagrantly false generalizations. For one thing, Hindu religion (which is obviously many different philosophies sharing Vedantic basis) includes the very caste reform which Guru Nanak Dev Ji illustrated by refusing the janeo, not from rejecting ritualistic brahminism per se... but from rejecting caste distinctions in spiritual bhagti and thus degenerating spirituality to ritualistic brahminism. How anyone can misconstrue a clearly Vaishnav philosophy and teaching with rejection of the whole of Vedanta is clearly playing pawn to the false generalizations of the British Raj.
Quote:"Does the wearing of a sacred thread make one a Brahmin? One who is devoted to God (Narayana) alone is a Brahmin." ~Ramanujacharya (1017 - 1137 AD)
Quote:ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਜੋ ਬਿੰਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤਾ ॥
so braahaman breham jo bindhae har saethee rang raathaa ||
He alone is a Brahmin, who knows the Lord Brahma, and is attuned to the Love of the Lord.
~SGGS Ji p. 68
Quote:ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਸਾਝਾ ॥
khathree braahaman soodh vais oupadhaes chahu varanaa ko saajhaa ||
The four castes - the Kh'shaatriyas, Brahmins, Soodras and Vaishyas - are equal in respect to the teachings.
~SGGS Ji p. 747
Quote:ਏਤੇ ਜੀਅ ਜਾਂ ਚੈ ਹਹਿ ਘਰੀ ॥
eaethae jeea jaan chai hehi gharee ||
All the creatures of the world are in His House.
ਸਰਬ ਬਿਆਪਿਕ ਅੰਤਰ ਹਰੀ ॥
sarab biaapik anthar haree ||
The Lord is diffused in the inner beings of all.
ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਤਾਂ ਚੀ ਆਣਿ ॥
pranavai naamadhaeo thaan chee aan ||
Prays Naam Dayv, seek His Protection.
ਸਗਲ ਭਗਤ ਜਾ ਚੈ ਨੀਸਾਣਿ ॥੫॥੧॥
sagal bhagath jaa chai neesaan ||5||1||
All the devotees are His banner and insignia. ||5||1||
ਮਲਾਰ ॥
malaar ||
Malaar:
ਮੋ ਕਉ ਤੂੰ ਨ ਬਿਸਾਰਿ ਤੂ ਨ ਬਿਸਾਰਿ ॥
mo ko thoon n bisaar thoo n bisaar ||
Please do not forget me; please do not forget me,
ਤੂ ਨ ਬਿਸਾਰੇ ਰਾਮਈਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
thoo n bisaarae raameeaa ||1|| rehaao ||
please do not forget me, O Lord. ||1||Pause||
ਆਲਾਵੰਤੀ ਇਹੁ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਜੋ ਹੈ ਮੁਝ ਊਪਰਿ ਸਭ ਕੋਪਿਲਾ ॥
aalaavanthee eihu bhram jo hai mujh oopar sabh kopilaa ||
The temple priests have doubts about this, and everyone is furious with me.
ਸੂਦੁ ਸੂਦੁ ਕਰਿ ਮਾਰਿ ਉਠਾਇਓ ਕਹਾ ਕਰਉ ਬਾਪ ਬੀਠੁਲਾ ॥੧॥
soodh soodh kar maar outhaaeiou kehaa karo baap beethulaa ||1||
Calling me low-caste and untouchable, they beat me and drove me out; what should I do now, O Beloved Father Lord? ||1||
ਮੂਏ ਹੂਏ ਜਉ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਦੇਹੁਗੇ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਜਾਨੈ ਕੋਇਲਾ ॥
mooeae hooeae jo mukath dhaehugae mukath n jaanai koeilaa ||
If You liberate me after I am dead, no one will know that I am liberated.
ਏ ਪੰਡੀਆ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਢੇਢ ਕਹਤ ਤੇਰੀ ਪੈਜ ਪਿਛੰਉਡੀ ਹੋਇਲਾ ॥੨॥
eae panddeeaa mo ko dtaedt kehath thaeree paij pishhanouddee hoeilaa ||2||
These Pandits, these religious scholars, call me low-born; when they say this, they tarnish Your honor as well. ||2||
ਤੂ ਜੁ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੁ ਕਹੀਅਤੁ ਹੈਂ ਅਤਿਭੁਜ ਭਇਓ ਅਪਾਰਲਾ ॥
thoo j dhaeiaal kirapaal keheeath hain athibhuj bhaeiou apaaralaa ||
You are called kind and compassionate; the power of Your Arm is absolutely unrivalled.
ਫੇਰਿ ਦੀਆ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਨਾਮੇ ਕਉ ਪੰਡੀਅਨ ਕਉ ਪਿਛਵਾਰਲਾ ॥੩॥੨॥
faer dheeaa dhaehuraa naamae ko panddeean ko pishhavaaralaa ||3||2||
The Lord turned the temple around to face Naam Dayv; He turned His back on the Brahmins. ||3||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 1292
Quote:"Namdev (c.1270-c.1350 CE) was born in the village of NarasVamani, now located in the Satara District in Maharashtra. He was born to a tailor named Dāmāsheti Relekar and his wife Gonāi (Gunābāi). Soon after his birth, his family moved to Pandharpur in the Solapur district of Maharashtra, where the prominent temple of the Hindu God form Viththal or Vithobā is located. His parents were devotees of Vithobā...
Since childhood, Namdev was an ardent devotee of Vithoba like his parents. According to a legend, when Namdev was five years old, his mother once gave him some food offering for Vithoba and asked him to take it and give it to Vithoba in the Pandharpur temple. Accordingly, young Namdev took the offering and placed it before Vithoba's idol in the temple, asking Vithoba to partake of the offering. When he saw that his request was not being met, he told Vithoba that unless his request was met, he would be killing himself. Vithoba then appeared in a personal form and partook of the offering in response to the utter devotion of young Namdev[citation needed]. (The place where, according to the legend, Namdev had waited for Vithoba to partake of the food offering is currently identified in that temple as "Nāmdev Pāyari".)
Namdev traveled through many parts of India, reciting his religious poems. He is said to have lived for more than twenty years in the village of Ghuman in the Gurdaspur district of Punjab, where a memorial commemorates him. [en.wikipedia.org]
Quote:"Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji was born 15 April 1469 into a Hindu Khatri family,[2] in the village of Rai Bhoi Ki Talwandi, now called Nankana Sahibter the Guru), near Lahore, Pakistan. [en.wikipedia.org]
Clearly by the dates we can see there was no "Sikhism" during lifetime of Swami Nam Dev, and that he was clearly known as a Hindu. Why modern Sikhs try to make all the bhagats into modern day Sikhs, or even the Sufi bhagats who were part of Raamnaamis into some kind of orthodox Muslims when clearly they too were influence by Vaishnavism and hence considered heretical by orthodox Muslims is just the mental gymnastics of evading the factual history... Sikhism is influenced by Vaishnav philosophy. Gurbani is derived from the wisdom of the Vedas. It is very clear from within Gurbani itself. Where else do you hear the Naam of God as Jagannatha Gopala and try to convince yourself there is no Vaishnav influence?
Derived: "Stemming from an original source."
Clearly.
Quote:ਤੂ ਸਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਚੁ ਸਚੁ ਸਭੁ ਧਾਰਿਆ ॥
thoo sachaa saahib sach sach sabh dhhaariaa ||
You are True, O my True Lord and Master; You uphold all that is true.
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕੀਤੋ ਥਾਟੁ ਸਿਰਜਿ ਸੰਸਾਰਿਆ ॥
guramukh keetho thhaatt siraj sansaariaa ||
You created the world, making a place for the Gurmukhs.
ਹਰਿ ਆਗਿਆ ਹੋਏ ਬੇਦ ਪਾਪੁ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਵੀਚਾਰਿਆ ॥
har aagiaa hoeae baedh paap punn veechaariaa ||
By the Will of the Lord, the Vedas came into being; they discriminate between sin and virtue.
ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਬਿਸਥਾਰਿਆ ॥
brehamaa bisan mehaes thrai gun bisathhaariaa ||
You created Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, and the expanse of the three qualities.
ਨਵ ਖੰਡ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੀ ਸਾਜਿ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗ ਸਵਾਰਿਆ ॥
nav khandd prithhamee saaj har rang savaariaa ||
Creating the world of the nine regions, O Lord, You have embellished it with beauty.
~SGGS Ji p. 1094
