ਨਸਾਜ਼ੋਨਬਾਜ਼ੋਨਫ਼ੌਜੋਨਫ਼ਰਸ਼॥ਖ਼ੁਦਾਵੰਦਬਖ਼ਸ਼ਿੰਦਹਿਐਸ਼ਿਅਰਸ਼॥੪॥ (ਸ੍ਰੀ ਮੁਖਵਾਕ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਾਹੀ ੧੦॥)

Akal Purakh Kee Rachha Hamnai, SarbLoh Dee Racchia Hamanai


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Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: Xylitol (IP Logged)
Date: January 11, 2008 11:39AM

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with, for example, adding an adhak where necessary. This is correct santhiya, as I was taught. But My contention is that the Taksaal that Guru Sahib started is the one that teaches correct pronounciation, as it was taught to them by Guru ji. Baba Gurbachan Singh ji himself stated that the taksaal's first mukhi was Baba Deep Singh ji and that its founder is Guru Gobind Singh ji. Deviations from the taksaali santhiya are not necessarily correct just b/c they make sense to people.

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: gsingh (IP Logged)
Date: January 11, 2008 02:53PM

Xylitol,first you posted santhiya by gyani takhur singh, then you posted santhiya done by bhindri taksal. I dont know if you noticed, but Bhindri Taksal doesn't add any bindis or tippis (contrary to Gurbani Paath Darshan by Sant Gurbachan Singh), and even go to the extent of calling it manmat to add them. Gyani Takhur Singh on the other hand, adds bindis and tippis, and even says paatisaah, as paatiSHaah.

Then you wrote:
"To pronounce differently can change the meaning of the word. It is also disrespectful to the Guru to place our mat above the Guru's and add tipi's and bindi's here and there."

I have no problem with you not putting in any tippis or bindis, I personally am double minded on this topic, but am leaning towards believing that bindis and tippis should not be added. However, please be careful before making such broad statements as the one pasted above. Sant Gurbachan Singh, Sant Kartaar Singh and Sant Jarnail Singh all added in tippis and bindis, and after referring to them as brahmgianis in another thread, you are now accusing them of manmat.

Although I don't agree with what seems to me as the over-addition of bindis and tippis, people that add them are doing so based on their understanding of bani. Bani is sargun saroop of akaal purkh, and thus different people will always have different veechar on bani. As Guru Gobind Singh Jee says: ਆਪੁ ਆਪਨੀ ਬੁਧਿ ਹੈ ਜੇਤੀ ॥ ਬਰਨਤ ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਤੁਹਿ ਤੇਤੀ ॥

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: NiranjanSingh (IP Logged)
Date: January 11, 2008 02:56PM

Xylitol,

Your argument that the Taksaal was started by Guru Sahib and it is following the very same exact pronunciation rules from Guru Sahib, has absolutely no basis. The only people who believe this story are the Taksalis themselves. There is not a single shred of historical proof or evidence to back that claim. This type of claim is no different from the Kookas claiming that Guru Gobind Singh Ji passed on his Guruship to their kooka guru. We all know that in reality the Bhinderan Jatha was started by Giani Sunder Singh Ji of Bhinderkalan, anyone before them were Nirmala oriented. This is historically evidenced.

Anyways, there is no sense in arguing about the validity of your claims since they truly are baseless.

One thing for sure is that there is no single method followed by the Taksalis for pronunciation. Every other Taksali has his own theory and method of pronunciation.

I have heard Gurbani recitation by Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji, Baba Kartar Singh Ji, and modern Taksalis like Thakur Singh, Daljit Singh, and Bhai Jarnail Singh, and their pronunciations contradict each other.

I think before the Taksal claims absolute authority over pronunciation rules, it needs to first convince its own members to follow those rules. Please shares with us those rules, once that is done. You know that is never going to happen since no one wants admit their way is wrong.

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: Ghareeb (IP Logged)
Date: January 12, 2008 09:02AM

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Kulbir Singh ji, you have given very pertinent instances where while reciting gurbani one has to keep context of the tuk to pronounce words in such a way that the intended meaning comes forth. The example of word 'Putri' to be pronounced as 'Putreen' in my humble opinion is very appropriate, otherwise it would mean daughter that is not the intended meaning.

The problem is that at the time of Guru ji when Gurbani was being written or compiled the 'Bindi' for nasalisation was not known. Only 'tippi' was used mostly with 'mukta' letters or letters carrying aunkar or dulainkre.

The 'Bindi' was being used in Gurbani at that time purely where now we have 'kanna'. Mind you in the original Gurmukhi (for verification see Gurmukhi in Goindwal Pothis or ancient manuscripts of Gurbani) there was no 'Kanna'sign. Bindi between letters implied a kanna.

The bindis in the modern printed beers were introduced only recently. These too are at haphazard positions. For instance these are sometimes behind a biharee and at other times before biharee.

Same is the situation with the 'paireen bindi'. This practice was introduced a little over a century ago to make it possible to write Farsi sounds in Gurmukhi. Thus, Sasse paireen bindi is equivalent to 'Sheen' letter of Farsi. In Punjabi spoken in rural Punjab the sound 'Sh' was never spoken especally in rural Punjab. Thus 'Sher' with sasse pairee bindi was pronounced as 'Chher' with Chhachha that follows 'Chacha' in the thrid line of Gurmukhi painti. This is still the case. The sound 'z' as in Zameen is still pronounced in rural Punjab as 'Jameen' because Punjabi did not have any 'z' sound.

It was the elitist urban sikhs in Punjab who added five more letters with 'paireen bindi' to Gurmukhi painty to make forty letters to be able to write Farsi words in Gurmukhi. These never existed in Guru ji's time. Thus in the sabas 'Yak araj guftam...' the word 'araj' in original Farsi is 'araz' but Guru ji wrote it as 'araj' in the absence of any appropriate letter equivalent to 'zey' of Farsi.

The intersting example of this absence in Guru Nanak Dev ji's time is the absence of a proper way to deal with the 'z' sound that existed in Iran or Farsi but was not known to Punjabis.

Thus for the word in Farsi for paper namely 'Kaghaz' first Guru ji wrote it as 'Kagad' in Japuji, that is 'Kagad kalam na likhanhar' or the word 'Kazi' for the Muslim religious official Guru ji wrote 'Kadi'. For instance, 'Wakhat nw paio kadian'. There is even a town 'Kadian' near Batala which in Farsi must have been 'Kazian'.

Again in Asa Di Vaar, we have the tuk 'Kadh Kagal dasai raho'. Here 'l' sound is used in the absence of any appropriate letter in Gurmukhi for 'z' or 'zey' or Farsi.

In my humble opinion, pronuciation should not be carried out blindly if it changes the meaning intended. In this respect, the context of a word is extemely important.

To think that this would be sacreligious, this in my opinion is not appropriate because in Farsi that was the official language and script of the times of Guruji it was a rule rather than the exception that the meaning of a word is taken from the context.

To illustrate this, one can see this practice continuing in Urdu even today that came from Farsi. Thus the word , Is (meaning this) or 'Us' meaning He or That is written in Urdu by just writing 'Alif' followed by 'seen'. Without any context it would be pronounced as 'Us'. But according to the context it is pronounced as appopriate assuming that another sign 'pesh' equivalent to 'aunkar' in Gurmukhi is there even though it is not written when the meaning is to be assumed 'He' or 'That' and another sign 'zer' equivalent to siharee in Gurmukhi is assumed to be there when the meaning is expected to be 'this' as in 'is' of Punjabi.

My contention is that Guru ji left it to the reciter of Gurbani to pronounce the word 'Putri' as 'Putreen' to keep the meaning intact because at that time there was no appropriate sign for nasal sound when it accompanied a kanna, siharee, biharee or other vowel sounds.

This my two cents.

Bhul chuk maaf.

Ghareeb

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: Xylitol (IP Logged)
Date: January 12, 2008 06:26PM

I would like proof of the claimed contradiction in santhiya that some are referring to.

Also, I am aware that adhak may not be written in Bani but is meant to be pronounced etc., this is proper santhiya as was taught to Singhs by the Guru. Please read my above post which clarified what i meant.

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: gsingh (IP Logged)
Date: January 12, 2008 09:31PM

proof of what? that different singhs from taksal pronounce bani differently? Listen to Sant Kartaar Singh's ucharan of anand sahib where they say soup as soump (thereby adding a bindi), or when they say daedaa lae laidai thak paahi as daendaa dae laindae thaak paahi (thereby adding a bindi), or listen to sant gurbachan singhs katha where the person reading bani puts in bindian and tippis as well. In Gyani Takhur Singh santhiya DVD (I've only seen parts of it), he even says in the jap ji sahib part that bindis and tippis need to be added to some parts where arth arent spasht.

To anyone that has done santhiya with a taksali ustaad, the differences between gyani takhur singh's santhiya DVD and the recordings by bhindri taksaal are obvious. Furthermore, anyone that has listened to Sant Gurbachan Singh's katha, read Gurbani Paath darshan, listened to sant jarnail singh's katha or has listened to ucharan by Sant Kartaar Singh, should know that the Bhindri Taksaal recordings where they add no bindis or tippis are not in accordance to Taksal's parampara.

None of this is to say that Taksali santhiya is wrong...I personally do santhiya with taksaali ustaads and believe that if one is to add bindis or tippis, it should only be done where arth arent clear and the word could mean a number of different things if bindi/tippi isnt added...my only point is that we should be careful before labelling others as wrong or their beliefs as manmat, especially when we are not fully informed, or maybe even completely ignorant of the topic at hand.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2008 05:03AM by admin.

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: gsingh (IP Logged)
Date: January 12, 2008 09:57PM

one more point I would like to make about any aparent contradiction within Taksal...

just because some people that have learned from Taksal pronounce bani differently, this should not be taken as any sort of reason to doubt Taksali santhiya or its parampara. If tomorrow someone that has done santhiya at Tapoban starts saying all the lagamataraan, are we going to say that Tapoban santhiya is wrong? It's a foolish way to make an arguement. Listen to ucharan from Sant Gurbachan Singh, Sant Kartaar Singh and Sant Jarnail Singh...it is all very, very similar, and close to being identical.

The last point I would like to make is that for some reason every small difference seems to be exxagerated and magnified 1000x on internet message boards. Talk to true abhyaasi Singhs and an issue of adding bindian or not will rarely come up. One time in India I was talking to an abhyaasi singh, someone that I consider to be a true gurmukh about gurbani ucharan. He has also learned from Taksaalis and has spent a considerable about of time learning arth of bani and now spends most of his time either doing bahyaas or prachaar. This Singh believed in saying all lagamatars and not putting in bindian at all. I at the time believed that bindian should be put in at certain spots. After about 10 minutes of us talking about this issue and raising our points about why we believe what we believe, the singh said to me that, its ok that we dont agree on this point, you believe what you believe, and I believe what I believe, but when it all comes down to it, the most important thing is 'Jo Praanee govind dhiaavai. paRRiaa, unpaRRiaa, paramgat paavai'.

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: Khalsaspirit (IP Logged)
Date: January 13, 2008 10:06AM

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Khalsa jio,

'Jo Praanee govind dhiaavai. paRRiaa, unpaRRiaa, paramgat paavai'.

Here comes the absolute tat Gurmat because we have seen with our experience that there are many Singhs (male & female) who can not read and write Gurmukhi but they remember the nitnem just listening to other Singhs and when accompany them we felt enormous amount of energy coming from them. That was only because they kept the GURMANTAR running in side which needs no Santhya at all after Naam Drirrta.

Guru Mehar Karay Sada ve Charkha Shookda chal pavay.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: Menu Ke Patha (IP Logged)
Date: January 13, 2008 12:40PM

vaheguroo jee ka khalsa
vaheguroo jee kee fateh..
firstly...and clearly... i dnt assign my self to any jatha..veer above you talk of one..but also remember that there is ONLY one khalsa panth...!!!

also a curious question:
i no many jatha/taksaal and a few nihang singhs...
bt why isit that all the old school of thoughts (nihang, taksali) prounce bani as it is written...but not the new skool of thought..i.e the jatha valleh?...@ the moment im refering to prouncing sihaariaan etc..?

any1 care to expliain to this neech papeee?

also about the bindi stuff..if you lissen to Bhai Jarnail Singh's (Dam Damee Taksal) Nitnem Baniaan and you listen to Sohila Sahib you will see that in the gurbanee tuk antarjameee purakh vidateyy sardaa man kee pooreh...nanak dass ihhai sukh maa(n)gayy...mo ko kar santan ke dhoore!
he prounces maagai.as maangai...
just a little side note to bak veer atma singh and others...

maaf karo...
neech low gareeb papeee..
dass...

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: gurmantar (IP Logged)
Date: January 14, 2008 04:39AM

How would one pronounce the word hunkaar, as hunkaar or Ahankaar?
Atma Singh made the example of knight and discussed silent letters that are there to change the meaning but not be pronounced in the word, is that the case with hunkaar?
--VAHEGUROO--

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: NiranjanSingh (IP Logged)
Date: January 14, 2008 07:41AM

"Menu Ke Patha" stated :

>>>>why isit that all the old school of thoughts (nihang, taksali) prounce bani
>>>> as it is written...but not the new skool of thought..i.e the jatha valleh?...@


Bhai Sahib/Bhenji,

Can you point to an old school that truly reads Gurbani as it is written?
One can easily hear the recitation of Gurbani on the web by Baba Gurbachan Singh, Baba Kartar Singh, Baba Nihal Singh Nihang or Tarna Dal, and they also apply bindis and tippis various places. In fact one has to conclude that doing it not a new maryada but a puratan one.

Take the word ਗੋਬਿੰਦ (GOBIND) for example, in dozens of places in Guru Granth Sahib Ji it is written as ਗੋਬਿਦ (GOBID) without the tippi; but who pronounces it as "GOBID" without the tippi ?

Bhai Kulbir Singh Ji and others clearly explained that the numerics 1,2,3,4,5,9 next to ਮ: are recited as ਮਹਲਾ ਪਹਿਲਾ, ਮਹਲਾ ਦੂਜਾ etc.

I believe anyone who makes the claim that they are reading Gurbani exactly as it is written are just fooling themselves and others.

Also, I don't think we can state that nihangs and taksals are old schools of thought, since a lot of their maryada was also directly influenced by the Singh Sabha movement. I don't think any Jatha can boast that they had perfect maryada before that prominent movement. I think if Singh Sabha movement had not been around Sikhi would have been swallowed by Sanatanist practices. The proof of that is that Sikhs before that movement had discarded the Anand-Karaj maryada and it was due to the influence of that movement and the original Nirankari movement that the Anand-Karaj maryada was revived back into the Sikh panth.

The same can be said for many others practices the Singh Sabha movement brought back into the Sikh panth that had been either manipulated or abandoned after the demise the Sikh Raj in Punjab. Let's keep that in mind before dismissing something as "new".

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: January 14, 2008 09:14AM

-------
How would one pronounce the word hunkaar, as hunkaar or Ahankaar?
Atma Singh made the example of knight and discussed silent letters that are there to change the meaning but not be pronounced in the word, is that the case with hunkaar?
-------

Ahankaar is a Sanskrit/Prakrit word and Hankaar is the Punjabi form of it and these should be pronounced as written. There are no silent alphabets here.

Kulbir Singh

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: Khalsaspirit (IP Logged)
Date: January 14, 2008 11:03AM

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Bhai Niranjan Singh jio,

We think people who are arguing with base less and fact less point of "Older" should argue with so called parchariks who preach something and practice some thing else and on top of that they charge money for that from innocents. What a blunder practice going on under the name of GURMAT.

Guru Mehar Karay

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: Menu Ke Patha (IP Logged)
Date: January 14, 2008 12:26PM

veer jee..
so much for "khalsasprit"
persoally, dass feels u are a narrow minded being...
dass is younng nd noes nuffing, but seein ur post etc...wich show such negativity to certain group of people, dass feels he doesnt want to lern anyting more about the jatha..or even sikhee..
dis isnt the sikhee..wich dass has come to love...
challo
rab rakha..
papee da kee ay..im jus a low papeee..forgive me veer jee..

thanks

vaheguroo jee ka khalsa
vaheguroo jee kee fateh
rab rakha!!

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: gurmantar (IP Logged)
Date: January 16, 2008 06:57AM

How many different languages are there in Guroo Granth Sahib jee maharaj? If anyone could list them? and also say where abouts in the world they come from it would be appreciated.
Kulbir Singh?
--VAHEGUROO--

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: Atma Singh (IP Logged)
Date: February 02, 2008 11:29AM

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹ

Sadh-Sangat Jeeo,

I'd previously mentioned that a gursikh could, if required, lend me a book to show that Panth Rattan, Baba Gurbachan Singh BhinDraa(n)valae, believed that bindeeaa(n) do need to be pronounced in places where they are not normally pargat (visible).

I had second thoughts abuot posting the below given the delay but since someone had requested proof (I think veer/bhain 'xylitol'), and I had made a statement, I should back it up. Sorry for the delay - been a bit busy.

Here are two examples from Baba Jee's book 'GurbaaNee Paath DarpaN', published via Damdamee Taksaal (Jatha BhinDraa(n)), Mehta. Please note I have not read the whole darpaN - I have been pointed to these sections via notede made by a gursikh. If people need more examples, I can find more using his notes.

The first is useful because this panktee is recited by us all before we go to sleep as part of Sohila Sahib:


ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸੁ ਇਹੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਮਾਗੈ ; ਮੋ-ਕਉ ਕਰਿ ਸੰਤਨ ਕੀ ਧੂਰੇ
(Ang 13)

This panktee is mentioned on page page 223 of the book and Baba Jee has written regards ucharan: ' ਮਾਂਗੈ ਬੋਲੋ ' (recite/speak maa(n)gae)

The second example involves adding two bindeeaa(n) to one word in order to make sense of it, and mentions adding an adhak to a second word in the same panktee, again to make sense of it:

ਸਾਈ ਅਲਖੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ; ਭੋਰੀ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ
(Ang 397)

This panktee is mentioned on page page 330 of the book and Baba Jee has written regards ucharan: ਸਾਂਈਂ ਤੇ ਅਲੱਖ ਬੋਲੋ (recite as saa(n)ee(n) and alaKH).

I hope the above helps to clarify the fact that:

1) No-one should ever say that someone else's Paath is ashud because they believe in the concept of adding bindeeaa(n) and/or adhak. To use Taksaal as an example to back-up their point would be false given the above.

2) People should research regarding pronounciation themselves. That is to not say we shouldn't can't 'copy' others to get along. Otherwise, it would take us perhaps 50 years or even more before we plucked-up the courage to do Paath! I pronounce ਸੀਤਲ as ਸ਼ੀਤਲ because a gursikh whom i believe has a lot of gurbaaNee-based knowledge does so. However, it would be very silly of me to tell people that saying ਸੀਤਲ is incorrect just because I do it this way. I have not done sufficient research to start 'preaching' to others.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: khalistan_zindabaad (IP Logged)
Date: February 03, 2008 09:56AM

A teacher may teach a student somoething, if the student revises what he is tought then he will get good marks. . .if the student does more the revision and becomes like the teacher then that is maharaj sahib jees kirpa. . the mukhis of taksal more or less all pronounce gurbani the same, there maybe slight differences, students always make mistakes. . .depends on how much bakshish one has and how much abhiyaas they do of the paat, hence i would believe sant gurbachan singh jees etc etc ucharan to be shud. . if you dont, then thats your own issue.

Giani thakur singh may pronounce sum paat differently, that upto him, but its not what he was tought, bindra taksal wasnt given jathedari, there ucharan may vary also. . . at the end of the day, do as much paat as possible. . . thats what matters.

thank you.

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: gurmantar (IP Logged)
Date: February 06, 2008 05:19AM

Thank-you Atma Singh for providing that information for us all to take notice of.
--VAVEGUROO--

 
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