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pronounciating bani
Posted by: gurmantar (IP Logged)
Date: January 06, 2008 12:50PM

VAHEGUROO JI KA KHALSA VAHEGUROO JI KI FATEH!!
We say that our Guroo is poura but if so why do we make s into sh when reading bani. I am not saying it is wrong, but was just wandering why it is done? Some say that if you look at bani it has the letter m but not the word mehala which we say, also that it is to pronounce the words properly, as some of them would not make sense if you said exaclty the way it was written but in my mind this topic is still not clear and at times it helps when things are written down for you to read as you are able to think and consider it properly...
Atma Singh
Kulbir Singh
and others if you could help explain this to me it would be very much appreciated, *Thank you in advance*
--VAHEGUROO--

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: Khalsaspirit (IP Logged)
Date: January 07, 2008 08:55AM

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

gurmantar jio,

You question is very valid and we think when some one reached to that state when this question comes up means Guru Sahib are doing kirpa to read the gurbani the way Guru Sahib wanted to. As you mentiond "We say that our Guroo is poura but if so why do we make s into sh when reading bani"

You will understand easily when to answer this following:

ÅÆ





Now could you write in next post how you read it?

Guru Mehar Karay

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: khalistan_zindabaad (IP Logged)
Date: January 07, 2008 03:41PM

ik oankaaar

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: gurmantar (IP Logged)
Date: January 08, 2008 02:34AM

ÅÆ

i am not sure how to read the above lol.....

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: chatrik (IP Logged)
Date: January 08, 2008 08:17AM

some even read it as....

IK-E-YongKar.

btw...adding SH instead of S is not same at reading the above veer Khalsaspirit jeo.

it clearly says SASSA not SHASHA.

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: Khalsaspirit (IP Logged)
Date: January 08, 2008 08:53AM

Waheguru ji ka kahlsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

gurmantar jio,

You probably know but let's go further this word is combination of alpha numeric letters and if we see carefully they are not touching each other (in other words not continuous) so the shudh ucharan will be

ਇੱਕ pause ਓਅੰਕਾਰ (Ik Oan(g)kar)

Here ura ਓ is open at top so ucharan will be with vertically wide open mouth.

But many people pronounce it together or ਏਕਮਕਾਰ etc. Which means if the first word of Gurbani needs so much attention then how ignorantly we can read rest. Now come to s or sh sounds there are many places in Gurbani that sh sound is the proper sound to pronounce sensible (shudh) words. We do not know much about rest of Gurbani but knows about some places in Nitnem Banis. We think following tuk can present here a perfect example because we read this tuk not just once or twice but thrice a day in the Salok (first after Sri Japji Sahib then after 5 bani Then after Rehraas):

ਜਿਨੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇਆ ਗਏ ਮਸਕਤਿ ਘਾਲਿ ॥
ਨਾਨਕ ਤੇ ਮੁਖ ਉਜਲੇ ਕੇਤੀ ਛੁਟੀ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥

Now word ਮਸਕਤਿ if one argues that it should be read as written then the word will be pronounced as ਮਸ ਕਤਿ mus kit which has no meaning. Try your self to pronounce as written will make two words ਮਸ and ਕਤਿ but you will be surprised to know your surat would not pronounce that instead it will pronounce naturally with Adhak on Sasa means you and many others pronounce as ਮਸੱਕਤਿ. Now the naturally added Adhak kept the word intact which sounds good to everyone but then it overrides the argument that bani should be read as written. But now you have to make decision your self that where this Adhak came from? Still with added Adhak it is not pronoucing the word which is meant in the tuk but who have knowledge/abhiyaas of Gurbani knows that it should be pronounced the way this word should be pronounced with bindi under Sasa ਮਸ਼ੱਕਤਿ then the real meaning of word and tuk comes out. So it is very clear that bindi in Gurbani Ucharan plays tremendous role so we should be very careful to the ucharan. Now where this is needed or not or comes out naturally for that information one must have santhya or spend time to learn from Gurmat books. We think Santhya of Nitnem is a good start. If you are not able to arrange that then following is our recommendation:

Saral Steek of Nitnem Bani by Bhai Joginder Singh ji Talwara
Or
Bhai Kulbir Singh Jee is doing exclusive online seva (see the thread "Important Bishrams in Sri Japji Sahib") and if you follow that you will learn a lot. We would like to do benti (request) to bhai sahib that please keep the pace on priorty.

Just a note: We have not taken Santhiya our self yet but extremely eager to do so, this is what we learned our own from reading different Gurmat books.

Guru Mehar Karay

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: Atma Singh (IP Logged)
Date: January 08, 2008 11:27AM

vaheguroojeekakhalsa,vaheguroojeekeefateh!

veer jee,

i must tell u that i'm a 'kindergarten student' when it comes to doing paath; certainly with much less experience than kulbir singh jee. i only repeat what i have been taught by singhs - where they disagree, i come to my own conclusion as to which explanation 'feels correct'. luckily i get to do quite regular sangat with singhs who seem very proficient.

as individuals and as jathebandeeaa(n), we must remember we exist in a panth which consists of many different schools of thoughts. some say sabad, others shabad, some say sudh / shudh when it appears in gurbaaNee, others stay silent, some read raagmala, others don't etc. even more interestingly, the jatha's singhs do not do paath the same amongst themselves; this is not a bad thing.

the main lesson to learn in all this is that yes - let's have our own opinions but no - never say someone does 'wrong paath'. maharaaj jee alone knows shudh pad-ched, bishraam, ucharan and correct meanings.

i personally add bindeeaa(n) in many places. this does not mean our guroo sahib is not poora. look at this: knight/night. the k is silent but by it's presence, it changes the whole meaning of the word.

by the same token, many alphabets are pronounced in different ways. organisation in english turns sassa into zazza to get the correct meaning. those who pronounce bindeeaa(n) view the gurmukhee alphabet in the same way.

however, if someone pronounces without bindeeaa(n), that is because of their sharda and we should never label their paath as 'ashudh'. are we now siree guroo sahib jee, who alone knows shudh paath? as gurbaaNee teaches, he is never mistaken, we are always liable to be mistaken.

"aap aapnee budh hai jethee..."

let's leave all judgement about such things to maharaaj jee who alone is capable and simply do veechaar in a humble way to 'arrive at sense within ourselves'.

if we decide guroo jee is not poora by this token, then we will next say he is not poora because he depends on humans to read him or because someone has made un-intentional spelling mistakes when writing his saroop etc...

ucharan is about personal choices, just as pad-ched, bishraam and meanings are - we should all follow what makes sense to us.

also, let's not act like sheep; i think maharaaj jee values us connecting directly with him as opposed to 'going along' with a crowd or group. i think he does more kirpa on us if we beg for gifts such as shudh paath from him as opposed to TOTALLY relying, WITHOUT questioning, on intermediaries such as 'sants, 'bhais' etc.

there is a lot to say, more than can ever be said, for love-drenched and heart-felt intentions when it comes to 'having a conversation with maharaaj jee' i.e. japping naam, doing paath. i believe maharaaj jee either ignores, covers-over or eliminates the un-intentional mistakes of his premee gursikhs.

as kulbir singh jee explained recently in the jap jee sahib thread, vaheguroo's language is love. love of vaheguroo conquers and subjugates all issues and things in it's wake - including 'shudh' and un-intentionally 'ashudh' paath.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: Xylitol (IP Logged)
Date: January 09, 2008 01:28PM

Dhur ki Bani came complete and perfect from Sach Khand. No mere human has the right to change it by adding or removing things. We should endeavour to pronounce it as the Guru has written it out for us. It is like that for a reason. We should keep the Guru's way of thinking above our own on this issue.

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: Atma Singh (IP Logged)
Date: January 10, 2008 07:14AM

vaheguroojeekakhalsa,vaheguroojeekeefateh!

veer/bhain 'xylitol' jee,

may i humbly say that people who are pronouncing gurbaaNee with bindeeaa(n) etc. are not 'changing' dhur-kee-baaNee in the way you suggest. they're feeling is that this is the way certain words must be approached and it is an issue of their 'personal sense of common-sense'.

by your rationale, we should say 'mama pehila, mama panjvaa(n) etc.' whenever m1 or m5 etc. appear in gurbaaNee. you could argue that this would be silly because they are abbreviations but by your rationale, and the way you have presented it, you seem to suggest we must do this on order to not 'change anything'. you could argue that 'it is like that for a reason' so let's pronounce it that way but you will have a hard time convincing 99.9% of the panth regarding this.

although many people may not be aware of this, even singhs linked to taksaal should be pronouncing bindeeaa(n) in many places where they do not physically appear, if they are to go along with the way panth-da-rattan, baba gurbachan singh bhindraa(n)valae, described they should do so in one of his books. i can find the exact reference if need be; a singh i know very well was telling me about this recently.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: Aparadhee (IP Logged)
Date: January 10, 2008 10:06AM

jo mwgih Twkur Apuny qy soeI soeI dyvY ]





jo maagehi t(h)aakur apunae thae soee soee dhaevai ||
Whatever I ask for from my Lord and Master, he gives that to me

sant gurbachan singh ji used to pronounce maageh as maangeh, is that not adding to gurbani then just like adding a bindi?

why is a bindi at the top, meaning to add nunna sound acceptable in maangeh for example? when on another hand we are saying we should never put bindi on charan to change sabad to shabad for example.

if we pronounce maageh as maangeh or indeed deeda deh, leeehndeh thak paaheh,
surely we are changing gurbani and not reading gurbani how it is written by maharaj.

why does taksal accept adding bindi in this case and so strictly rejects placing bindi in charan of akhar.
surely the same rule of pronouncing gurbani how its written should apply to all situations?

xylitol i am assuming you prescribe to the view of taksal on santhiya. there is nothing wrong with it, like atma singh ji said, there is no right or wrong way.

but for reference even sant gurbachan singh used to add stuff to prnunciation. taksalis and people who condemn others who say shasha cannot deny that

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: gurmantar (IP Logged)
Date: January 10, 2008 11:13AM

It would be appreciated if you could show what Baba Gurbachan Singh says Atma Singh..
Im sorry that this post is causing an argument between the two of you, please remember that the khalsa panth is one family...we are all children of Guroo Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj...
However i also have to say that what Atma Singh and Khalsa Spirit are saying is making alot of sense to me...
--VAHEGUROO--

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: Khalsaspirit (IP Logged)
Date: January 10, 2008 01:29PM

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Xylitol jio,

We respect that you have shown interest in Gurbani Ucharan. Let's see how far you can go when read it with Sharda and understanding. Tonight when you recite Keertan Sohila please pay attention to the last tuks and you will suprised to know how vital the bindeea(n) are.

ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ਪੁਰਖ ਬਿਧਾਤੇ ਸਰਧਾ ਮਨ ਕੀ ਪੂਰੇ ॥
ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸੁ ਇਹੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਮਾਗੈ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਕਰਿ ਸੰਤਨ ਕੀ ਧੂਰੇ ॥੪॥੫॥

Word ਸਰਧਾ and ਮਾਗੈ will definately ask your attention and with Guru Sahib's grace we can surely say that you are already placing bindi naturally in one of the word either on top or in bottom but you are doing it.

Guru Mehar Karay

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: Xylitol (IP Logged)
Date: January 10, 2008 02:36PM

Atma Singh ji, could you please find the exact reference?

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: Xylitol (IP Logged)
Date: January 10, 2008 05:49PM

There is a right way and a wrong way to pronounce bani, that is why the Guru created Gurmukhi, that is why the Guru so strongly emphasised correct pronounciation of bani, and that is why the taksaals of the Giani Sampradha were started by the Guru's order, both what's Baba Deep Singh taksaal and Bhai Mani Singh Taksaal. Note that both taksaals teach the same thing regarding pronounciation.

To pronounce differently can change the meaning of the word. It is also disrespectful to the Guru to place our mat above the Guru's and add tipi's and bindi's here and there.

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: Singh. (IP Logged)
Date: January 11, 2008 02:28AM

I have always wondered how one would pronounce Gurparsad. I personally pronounce it as it is read.But I have heard some Singhs pronounce it with a Bindi under the sassa...making it GurparSHad.

What would everyone say to this.

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: gurmantar (IP Logged)
Date: January 11, 2008 02:44AM

Both schools of thought in this topic, have their own thoughts and will not change on them, lets agree to disagree, like Atma Singh said only Maharaj jee know what is truly shudh bani and no mere human being will be able to tell you thus it is important to follow what you feel inside to be right and that makes sense to you personally.
It would still be appreciated if the reference from Baba Gurbachan Singh Jee could be presented as i feel some people do have a greater understanding which is why i initially brought up this topic. We also must consider that the individuals who do have more knowledge but still belong to either school of thought must have followed what felt right to them also, and again like Atma Singh said we can not just follow what 'Sants' tell us without question; Sikhi is very personal and we must go with our hearts just like these 'Sants' did...
--VAHEGUROO--

 



Re: pronouncing bani
Posted by: Atma Singh (IP Logged)
Date: January 11, 2008 03:13AM

vaheguroojeekakhalsa,vaheguroojeekeefateh!

khalsa jeeo,

i'm sorry if it seems that i am encouraging an argument. i will talk to the singh jees that i learn paath with and get exact references; i believe one of them has read the whole pustak. i know that the pustak is ‘gurbaaNee paath darpan’. i have not read it but we have discussed small excerpts amongst ourselves.

my only aim in sharing what baba gurbachan singh bhindraa(n)valae has written is to make clear that that those who say ‘paath should always be pronounced exactly as it is written’ should at least be careful as to why they believe this. they should not make ‘assumptions’ which are then used to label others as ‘ashudh paathees’ or as people who are ‘placing their mat above siree guroo sahib jee’s gurmat’.

if any taksaal / sampradaya believes that they have 100% correct knowledge re: gurbaaNee ucharan, then that is between them and siree guroo sahib jee. i have no wish to become involved and say ‘they are correct’ or ‘they are incorrect’ – only siree guroo sahib jee is aware regarding the veracity of such statements.

i will aim to provide detailed references within a few days. that will be my last post within this thread because it seems the thread is on the verge of turning into a 'my way' or 'no way' thread. when it comes to gurbaaNee ucharan, i do not wish to continuously take part in such a debate because i do not think it helps things; it is for people to do their own research and formulate their own opinions – not to label one another.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: Aparadhee (IP Logged)
Date: January 11, 2008 04:34AM

but both taksals add bindis to bani aswel like stated in das's previous post veer ji. the taksals that you mention being created for the very purpose of gurbani uchaaran themselves accept the adding of bindis on top of akhar, therefore "they are changing gurbani" aswel. if they are then who do we turn to? everyones doing it. therefore everyones doing beadbi right even the guru's beloved taksal. thats if we go by your way of thinking veer ji.

guroo

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: January 11, 2008 07:31AM

Regarding this subject of Gurbani pronunciation I would like to share the following thoughts with sangat:

1) There are 35 alphabets in Gurmukhi but far more sounds. So, many of the alphabets have more than one sound e.g. jajja and zazza are represented by one alphabet that is called jajja in Punjabi (because they have created another alphabet for zazza by placing bindi under jajja). Same way Khakha for khota and khakha for khargosh are different. In Gurmukhi only one alphabet is used for both of these sounds but in Punjabi we have place bindi under khakha when writing khargosh (rabbit).

2) In the light of point mentioned in point 1 above, I believe it is unfair to read Gurmukhi using the standards and rules of Punjabi. It’s true that in Punjabi jajja means jajja and for the sound of zazza we place bindi under jajja but in Gurmukhi only one alphabet represents both jajja and zazza. The ones who try to read Gurmukhi using the standards of Punjabi do ashudh (wrong) uchaaran (pronunciation) of Gurbani. It is imperative that the correct sound of the alphabet be pronounced at a given place.

3) Now coming to the uchaaran of bindi the nasal sound, it is clear that Guru Sahib did not place bindis for nasal sound since it was so clear. The ones who can read Urdu too notice that the obvious symbols are not placed in writing. If you want to write Dil in Urdu, the correct way to do is to place a zer (the sound of sihaari) after and below daal (the sound of dada) but many times you notice that in newspapers they write just daal and laam (sound of lalla) and if a new person was to pronounce this he would pronounce dal instead of dil because of absence of zer (sihaari). Same way, it seems to me, that at obvious places, nasal sound bindis have been omitted but have been placed at few places as to set precedent for other places.

4) Look at the word

puqRI




. This word appears in Ramkali kee Vaar as follows: Putree kaul naa paaliyo, kar peero kann muratiyo|| Now if you don’t pronounce the bihaari of ‘putree’ with nasal sound, the meaning would be clearly daughter but if you place the nasal sound then the meaning is sons (plural of son). This pankiti is referring to sons of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee who did not obey the hukam of Guru Sahib. At another place this word ‘putree’ comes in the meaning of daughter and at that place there should be no nasal sound – Gachho Putree Raaj Kuaar. This pankiti means ‘O Princess daughter leave now’. So we see that not pronouncing the nasal sound can have disastrous affect on the meanings of Gurbani.

5) As Khalsaspirit jee already wrote, if you don’t place adhak where required, the meanings get distorted. The word “Mashakat” must be pronounced with an adhak and only then it would means hard-work, otherwise it would mean the place of falling down.

6) Not only adhaks but sometimes half-words have to be pronounced in some words. Take a look at 6th pauri of Siri Jap jee Sahib. The first pankiti is “Teerath Naava, je Tis Bhaava”. The word ‘naava’ must be pronounced with a half haaha under nanna as suggested by none other than Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwalay. Only then the meaning would be ishnaan or bathing. Please refer to his book Gurbani Paath Darshan published by Giani Mohan Singh.

7) ‘Salok Mahalla 1’. In this heading of Gurbani how do you know that it is Salok Mahalla Pehla and not Salok Mahalla Ik. Why is the numerical ‘ 1 ‘ being pronounced as Pehla but the same numerical when it comes with Ik Oankaar, it is pronounced as ‘ikk’. This proves that you can’t read Gurbani as it is written. If this was the case then you would either have to say “Pehla Oankaar” or say “Salok Mahalla ikk” for the sake of consistency.


A Veer has mentioned the uchaaran of “Gur-prasaad”. The sassa in “Prasaad” should not be pronounced as ‘shasha’ of Punjabi language but as sassa.

Baaki as Veer Atma Singh mentioned, no one can know the limit of Gurbani. We should just honestly try our best to do the best pronunciation we can do.

Daas,
Kulbir Singh



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2008 07:56AM by admin.

 



Re: pronounciating bani
Posted by: Khalsaspirit (IP Logged)
Date: January 11, 2008 08:18AM

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Khalsa jio,

Sorry to say that if this thread is turning to 2 schools of thoughts and if that is the case then one of the school must be wrong because there is no duality in Gurmat. Gurmat starts with ONE and stays with ONE so there is no question about duality (ਦੁਬਿਧਾ) if you are following the path. However, there are some Sikhs like Xylitol ji that are very good at vogue (ਗੋਲ-ਮੋਲ) answers to almost every point in Gurmat. There UNIVERSAL ANSWER is our taksal started by Guru Sahib. Which means the rest of the panth was created by some one else? They never read what they suggest to others for example this following question address to Atma Singh ji by xylitol ji

"Atma Singh ji, could you please find the exact reference?"

These guys always refer to Gurbani Paath darshan book but we extremely doubt if they ever read it them self otherwise they would not have raised this question.
OH school of 2nd thought (duality) jio HAVE YOU EVER READ GURBANI PATH DARSAHN YOURSELF? If your answer is no then Bhai Atma Singh ji you should not spend your precious time to find something to show to blinds. Xylitol jio dare enough to read the book and find answers your self. Best of luck when you argue next time with base less and fact less UNIVERSAL ANSWER. Kirpa Karo ji try to eliminate the habit of living on hear say.

Khalsa jio, sorry for our little harsh words.

Guru Mehar Karay

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

 
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