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6 kakkars
Posted by: hardeep sengh (IP Logged)
Date: January 14, 2008 10:49AM

[www.khalsapanth.co.uk]

if ur undecided have six not five


i know they put it up there to please everyone



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2008 10:56AM by admin.

 



Re: 6 kakkars
Posted by: Koi (IP Logged)
Date: January 14, 2008 12:53PM

Keski is not a Kakkar

 



Re: 6 kakkars
Posted by: Singh (IP Logged)
Date: January 14, 2008 12:56PM

shabash koi. you are going to turn this thread into a heated debate.

 



Re: 6 kakkars
Posted by: hardeep sengh (IP Logged)
Date: January 14, 2008 01:27PM

Keski

It took a long and hard think before writing this article because I didn’t want to offend anyone, but then I thought ,why am I scared of what people think, do we want the happiness of the guru or people.

thaeree bhagath n shhoddo kiaa ko hasai ||
I shall not renounce Your devotional worship, O Lord; what does it matter if people laugh at me?

So with maharaj's appar kirpa this seva has been passed on. Please read the article with an open mind and please do not attempt to challenge the writer. If any mistakes are made then please forgive me.

I have been inspired by reading the book, Keski, not Kes, the kakkar by Bhai Udai Singh, please read the book and make your own decisions.

Keski

Why are people constantly arguing over this little issue? Whether you believe in keski or kesh as a kakar has no relevance. Either way, every gursikh should have a dastar (keski) on their head. It’s not the hardest thing in the world. Everyone knows that whilst sleeping, if your wearing a small keski then it will inevitably prevent your hair from knotting.

Our kakkars are given to us when we take amrit from the Panj Piyare, let’s look at each kakar in more depth.

• Kanga – A wooden comb, handmade by man. The kanga takes the knots out of the kesh.

• Kara – An Iron Bracelet made of pure Iron, handmade by man and is normally worn on both arms.

• Kashera - A white, knee length and sewn in a special way, underwear is handmade by man. It protects the amritthari from having sexual relationship with anyone, expect the partner.

• Kirpan – A Iron sword, handmade by man to protect the innocent

All kakars mentioned above must be worn at all times, even if the Sikh does not have an arm for example, the karra should always be connected to the body, spiritually by the soul.

Kesh or keski

Kesh is a beautiful gift which is given to us by God. It begins growing whilst the unborn baby is still in its mother’s womb. Proving that hair (kesh) isn’t man made, it is god made. We have no control over kesh, it is naturally there, it is not in our hukam (will).

Keski on the other hand is a small turban which is normally worn under the large Dastar (turban); it is manmade and protects the kesh at all times. How can Guru Gobind Singh ji introduce to us the kesh when it was already there, it was already given to every Human being by god- the gift of god, and would it not make more sense if the Guru had offered us the keksi, like he already has. It kinda makes sense doesn’t it?

Kesh

If an amritthari sikh who loses all his hair because of a disease such as typhoid, then will that person be classed as a sikh with only 4 k’s, if kesh is considered one of the 5ks?

One could say that if one losses there kesh then will that mean that they lose their keski and kanga, meaning they only need to have the kashera and the kara to be a sikh, NO! Let’s take an amritthari gurikh who loses both his arms, will this mean they don’t need to wear a kara.

Let’s look at the logic of this, is karra the kakkar of the Sikhs arm, or the Sikh himself? The karra is the kakar of the Sikh remaining alive after the loss of his arms. So arm or no arm, the kakkar must still be carried, no less by the armless sikh, because after all, karra is a kakkar, and at that, of a sikh not of his arms. So the keski and kanga should always stay connected to the body, if for some unfortunate reason the kesh is not blessed then does that mean that the sikh is of only 4 kakars.

Even after death, the sikh soul is still alive. The dead Sikh’s living soul must still be accompanied by kakkars, at least during his journey through death, and also during cremation, at which points, alas, the material kakars, perforce, will part company with the spiritual soul.

Let’s say kesh is the kakkar, then why is it that removal from the body of the kesh is considered an bujjar krehit (unexcusable), which is not forgiven till, after re- growing kesh, and can only be pardoned by the panj piyare. So why is it that when we take off the kirpan, when going abroad is not a Bujjar krehit, as a little ardaas can be done by the person by himself for forgiveness, Why is there this tremendous distinction between kesh on the one hand and the remaining four Ks on the other?

No body can take Amrit without Kirpan, Kashera, Kanga or Kara. This would be unthinkable. Then why is it that if a Sikh was to lose their hair due to a disease that they would still be allowed to take Amrit. Why the sudden difference?

Lets say for example say that Kummar (waist) is classed as a kakkar, what lesson will this give us. Or even a kuni (elbow), what teachings will this give us, not to elbow someone perhaps? It does not make sense does it, so when did it make sence to make kesh the kakkar. Anything natural cannot be a kakkar, anything not in mans control, not manmade, not taken on from outside, cannot be a kakkar, nor can kesh be one.

Bhai Taru ji, Importance of KESH!

Some peoples responses are that kakar by force, accident, disease or authority is not the Sikh’s fault and is therefore pardoned easily and immediately. For example taking off one’s kirpan when flying abroad is ok, and can be easily forgiven, all kakkars are equal never forget.

So, Bhai Taru Singh wouldn’t have needed to get his skull removed, because the removal by force of any kakkar (including his kesh kakkar) wouldn’t be his fault, and the pardon for such removal would be easy, by offering an ardaas.

Surely Bhai Taru Singh must have sometimes had his kanga fall off whilst asleep and he mush have sought and asked forgivness for the lapse. Likewise if kesh were a kakkar, wouldn’t he have similarly requested and received forgiveness for forcible removal of his kesh, rather than having his skull removed for refusing to have his hair removed?

Ask yourself why did bhai sahib resist the removal of his kesh, only to dare to have his skull removed?

Because the status of Kesh in sikhism is not that of a kakkar, it is way higher.

Kesh has a much higher role in sikhism

In short:

• Kesh is the distinguishing mark of sikhism

• Kesh are god’s abode on the human person

• Kesh are so many tongues on the Sikh’s body with which to utter Gods name

• And kesh are as important for the Sikhs to adhere to as is the breath for the continuance of life in his or her body.

All these comments are backed up by gurbani, such as ‘rom rom har oochreh’, meaning a Sikh utters Gods Name using every hair on his or her body.

Kesh is the correct, the exact and the complete, one word description of sikhism.

Bibia

This is more of a benti to bibia (women), as the maryada of keski for bibia are fading at some places but not all. Bibia have gone from keksi, patka and now choonia in the future it will come to fasion with the hair and then finally cutting of kesh. This to some extent is already happening. There is no such thing as the bibi with no keski does more sukmani sahibs then a keski bibi, it is not about the keski being more spiritual it is more of sikh rehit, and principles which need to be followed.

Ask yourself, why aren’t you wearing a keski, is it because of beauty, fashion or is it because your elders tell you it does not need to be included in the kakkars, well ask yourself again, do you want the roop of a Khalsa or do you want to walk around as just another member of the panjabi community?

Without the keski, especially the bibia, forego two kakkars, including kanga, because the right place for keeping kanga is the topknot, which is impossible without the keski.

It is unthinkable that conditions of Amrit for singhs are different from those of singhnis. For taking proper care of the kesh, if the Guru gave Kangha and keski to singhs, then the same kanga and keski cannot be allowed to remain missing from the heads of singhnis.

If a singh cannot go bare headed to the market or to his office, then who gave permission to the singhnis to roam around bareheaded? This needs to be looked in to, think about it yourself!

In Maharaja Ranjit Singh’s fort in lahore and in Victoria Museum in Calcutta, the old pictures depicting sacrifices of brave singhnis and singhs show them ALL wearing keski.

Very important point, Guru Gobind Singh says, “the khalsa is in my own image and I reside in the khalsa”. But how can those Singhnia even get close to looking anything like Guru Gobind Singh Ji when they reject the truth of keski. Braids, straight or tangled hair-knots and the kesh made into curled hairdos were NEVER and will NEVER be the features of the Gurus very own appearance.

If a woman puts on the keski, she has to forsake all the hair-fasions, which is why sikh women want to be excused from the keski, but which is eactly why they shouldn’t be so excused.

So it is a benti to bibia to please look into this and realise the mistakes that our elders have made. If the youth don’t do anything about it then future will not be good for the khalsa raj.

One last point

KESH HAS A HIGHER VALUE AND IT IS BLESSED ONLY BY WAHEGUROO, THE GURUS HAVE GIVEN US THESE KAKARS FOR A REASON. IF WE BEGI TO GO OUR OWN WAYS THEN THIS WILL NOT LEAD TO THE GURUS HAPPINESS.

Benti

Personally I think other singhs don’t want to admit that their wrong because of hankar and pride, they are not sikh enough to say they are in the wrong and will not change there ways. If so let it be, but this is more of a benti to the younger generation. I have seen in other jathe bibia wearing keskia, which really brings happiness to one’s heart, the guru will do his kirpa and the rehit of keski will again be in every sikh wanting to be amritthari.

Please do not challenge this article, it’s own choice, to follow gurus mat or your own. Make your own decisions by reading the book in full, as it is goes into more depth.

Keski, Not Kesh, The Kakkar by Professor Uday Singh.

People that know me, know that I am not attacking any jatha bandi, so please this is a benti to show your brother love not hatered, as your brother is in love with the panth and not people.

Waheguroo ji ka khalsa, waheguroo ji ki fateh

 



Re: 6 kakkars
Posted by: the paradigm shifter (IP Logged)
Date: January 15, 2008 02:40AM

I always wonder who will provide the kakkaar of kesh when they advertize on posters at amrit sanchaars "all kakkaars will be provided". Pray tell us how do the panj pyare sort out new kesh for those partaking in amrit?

Satnam Singh

 



Re: 6 kakkars
Posted by: Koi (IP Logged)
Date: January 15, 2008 04:45AM

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

I have no intention of starting any heated debate, and I apologise if you think I do. I only have the intention of attempting to clarify the "6 Kakkar" question post started by hardeep sengh ji. Though I do not agree with hardeep sengh ji's second post (obviously), I commend this brother's humility and respect in their reply. My personal opinion is derived from this shabad in the Dasam Granth:


< sRI vwihgurU jI kI Pqih ]
sRI muKvwk pwiqswhI 10 ]
inswin isKI eIN pMj hriP Asq kwP ]
hrigj nw bwsd eIN pMj muAwP ] 1]
kVw kwrdo k`C kMGy ibdW ]
iblw kys hyc Asq jumly insW ] 2]
hrP hkwieq Asq AjI pMj kwP]
ibdw nMd bwvr n goXm iKlwP ] 3]
hu`kw hjwmq hlwlo hrwm ]
bwrIsy ihnw krd rU isXw Pwm ] 4] 1]
(AsPokt sÍYXy, sRI dsm gRMQ)






(Apologies, I don't know how to post in Gurmukhi!)

Like hardeep sengh ji, I am not associated with or attacking any jatha bandhi, this is my own personal belief. I don't intend on starting any "heated" debate.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2008 06:36AM by admin.

 



Re: 6 kakkars
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: January 15, 2008 06:40AM

According to famous scholar Dr Pyara Singh Padam This quote by 'koi' jee is not found in older copies of Dasam Granth. Pyara Singh Padam believed in whole of Dasam Granth baani to be Dasmesh baani but regarding this quote he has written that it's not found in older copies of Dasam Granth and that some premi wrote this in the 1800s.

Kulbir Singh

 



Re: 6 kakkars
Posted by: Bundha (IP Logged)
Date: January 15, 2008 07:29AM

Koi, please can you give shabad n translation as I do not have correct font (and I am at work!)

<<< I always wonder who will provide the kakkaar of kesh when they advertize on posters at amrit sanchaars "all kakkaars will be provided". Pray tell us how do the panj pyare sort out new kesh for those partaking in amrit? >>>

You dont think the person who goes to shack amrit should bring anything of his own with him, he should come 'khalli hath'?

As long as the person has one hair on his/her body and does not intend to cut it in the future he/she is bringing the first kakkar with them. This is just common sense.

You can make whatever arguments you want, convoluted or not, Kesh is first kakkar, period.

 



Re: 6 kakkars
Posted by: Pwalla! (IP Logged)
Date: January 15, 2008 09:02AM

waheguroo ji ka khalsa, waheguroo ji ki fateh

Dear sangat ji, please think about this topic with an open mind and not what babeh and people believe in. Again something to point here people can make mistakes but the guru is perfect, for example every one respected Baba Ranjit Singh and Baba Maan Singh but look at what mistakes they have made. Yet if their mistakes didn’t come out in the open, then we would have still believed that they are some Chardikala 'SANTS', they would have passed away and no one would have known about their actions. Chalo, that’s another topic.

Guru Gobind Singh ji was around 9 years of age when Guru Teg Bahadar ji had sacrificed his family, body and wealth for the pandits but mostly for humanity, and service to waheguroo. The Guru attained Shaheedi. The thunder reaped the skies above, lightning hit the airs and the crowd sought shelter. While this was happening a Gursikh named Bhai Jaita Ji ran forward took the gurus head and escaped. Also Lakhi Shah Labana took hold of the body and placed it on his cart, he too had escaped.

Bhai Jaita Ji took the Gurus head to Gobind Rai (Guru Gobind Singh ji ), Guru Mahraj asked Bhai Jaita, 'how many devotees of the guru could be seen?'. Bhai Jaita replied that he could not tell who was who, and how many Sikhs were in the crowd. Guru Mahraj at that stage decided to put such a stamp on the Sikhs that even in a million a gursikh can be spotted.

Now that’s a very basic introduction of what happened at that time, but let’s look at this in more detail. The Guru was upset that no one came out to say what you guys are doing is wrong. Sikhs hid in the crowed, and watched while there guru was attaining shaheedi. The Guru decided to put such a stamp on the Sikhs appearance that they could be spotted within millions.

The Guru introduced Amrit, Kakkars and Banna showing this unique appearance. Now let’s look at the Kakkars that the guru had blessed us with:
• Kirpan
• Kara
• Kashera
• Kanga

Now, the above mentioned can ALL be worn by male and female.

Let’s say Kesh is the 5th kakkar, the male could wear a dastar and he would be fine, but what about the female gursikhs? The guru forgot about them, because they got kesh but even with this, there is not a difference to their appearance. Why did the guru do this? Why is it that the male gursikhs were targeted, to have this change but the bibia can carry on wearing chuniya on their heads and not much of difference to their appearance, why? Even if the male didn’t want to wear a keski, he doesn’t have to because he has got his dhari (beard) to show that he has a different appearance from the rest of the world. Yeh BUT the bibi can’t grow a beard, so what was so different about their appearance. Again why, why did the guru penalise the Male gursikhs?

On the other hand let’s say Keski is a kakkar. Now let’s see if this is more practical. Now a bibi or a Singh can’t have the excuse of putting their hair down because the keski is there as a kakkar. It has such a big difference to the bibia and Singh, so beard or no beard both singhs and singhni can be seen as the Gurus Sikhs. Both will have to tie a joora (top nop) on top of their heads with the keski, so no beadbi can be done to the kesh. This shows that the guru did not make a mistake, where as the 1st example it shows weakness in the guru, which we all know is not true.

So please it’s a benti lets get rid of this petty debates and agreements, let’s think about it other jatha bandia believe that keski is a must, so what difference does it make if this is a kakkar or not, please explain this? It just doesn’t make sense. Is it because our elders can’t sacrifice their fashion? Or is it because a shaheed singhs singhni or a chardikala gursikhs singhni doesn’t wear one, so that makes it fine because there chardikala, and we can’t question them. Well some of us do, and it’s time we stop idolising people, and look at our gurus teachings and examples.

It don’t matter if Bhai Randheer Singh said it was a kakkar, it don’t matter if gursikhs had darshan of the Guru saying that keski needs to be brought back in to the panth, but it does matter when someone makes a mistake and hides it, scared that we will have to put our hands up and say that we were wrong.

Guru Rakha.

Waheguroo ji ka khalsa, waheguroo ji ki fateh

 



Re: 6 kakkars
Posted by: the paradigm shifter (IP Logged)
Date: January 15, 2008 09:34AM

You can make whatever arguments you want, convoluted or not, Keski is the kakkar, period. It is also easy for me to write that and expect you to take it for granted.

A person takes their head to the Guru who in turn bestows the panj gifts of the kakkars to them. A gift from the Guru cannot be brought from elsewhere. If i can bring kesh , what is stopping me from bringing the rest of the kakkars? To take it further why go to the panj pyare for amrit if the question is only about wearing the kakkars?? I might as well simply buy the kakkars and call myself a sikh of the Guru, why attend the amrit ceremony?

I think many of those who say kesh is the kakkar would prefer to have an uncovered head at home (in their own environment) and more so support it because they are lax in implementing the will of our Guru upon our fellow sisters, mothers and daughters. I have no doubt that "bundha" will be wearing a keski. Keski and kesh go hand in hand for all sikhs.

satnam singh

 



Re: 6 kakkars
Posted by: Singh. (IP Logged)
Date: January 15, 2008 11:05AM

Thanks for that article Bhai Hardeep Singh. very informative and made alot of sense. Alot of the points I had not thought about previously.

Thanks again.
:)

 



Re: 6 kakkars
Posted by: hardeep sengh (IP Logged)
Date: January 15, 2008 12:13PM

I THINK EVERYONE HAS FIGURED OUT THAT THE KESKI ARTICLE
UNDER MY NAME WAS WRITTEN BT THE MIGHTY PWALLA

ਹੀਹੀਹੀਹੀਹੀਹੀਹੀਹੀਹੀਹੀਹੀਹੀਹੀਹੀਹੀਹੀਹੀਹਾ

 



Re: 6 kakkars
Posted by: Pwalla! (IP Logged)
Date: January 15, 2008 12:25PM

hahaha you should have took the credit lol rather then giving me pamp lol Waheguroo

All gurus kirpa!

 



Re: 6 kakkars
Posted by: Khalsaspirit (IP Logged)
Date: January 15, 2008 12:32PM

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Khalsa jio,

Despite the fact that their strand did not accept KESKI as kakkar but still many Gursikhs of past and present accepted it as a strict Rehat including Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji’s Singhni and Baba Kartar Singh Ji’s Singhni who wore KESKI. Except in Baba Kartar Singh Ji's case his Singhni ji removed after Baba jee left this world. Now KESKI for both male and female is being widely accepted by concerned Gursikhs and we think what ever people officially think that does not matter now because actions are enough to tell the truth. On this point personally we have seen that many Parchariks including Takhat Jathedaars have had their Singhnis wear Keski regardless of thru what Jathaybandi they received the Khanday di pahul SGPC, Taksal, Sikh Missionary, Nihung Dals, 3HO etc. Now many female Amrit ablakhis like to keep this Rehat. We admire this positive approach by many Jathaybandees and the trend is improving day by day, year by year and we are very hope full that by the end of this century whole Panth will accept KESKI as kakkar officially. Now this issue is only a matter of personal relaxation rather than any Jathaybandees however, SAVDAN! (BEAWARE!) There is a splitter group in Panth who has nothing to do just to split the panth on as many as issues they can because they do not like to see the chardi kala of Panth.

Guru Mehar Karay

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

 



Re: 6 kakkars
Posted by: khalistan_zindabaad (IP Logged)
Date: January 15, 2008 03:44PM

why try to use taksal for your arguments. hey, on one hand you disagree with baba gurbachan singh jee and baba kartaar singh jee, and then say. . .ohhh ahhh there singhnees wore keskis. a bit childish i say.... i like the name pyara singh padam, as there nothing controversial with him is there? lol

 



Re: 6 kakkars
Posted by: mpsingh86 (IP Logged)
Date: January 15, 2008 11:32PM

6th kakar is KamarKasa.
If u see the picture of nihangs singhs or our guruji's( Guru Gibind Singh ji) and Mata Gujri Ji, they all are wearing Kamarkasas

 



Re: 6 kakkars
Posted by: Harinder Singh (IP Logged)
Date: January 16, 2008 01:22AM

I believe there are only 5 kakkaars and keski is a kakkaar and not kesh. However if someone is ready to accept the 6 kakaar theory, thats great.And if somebody does not want to accept keski as kakkar but is ready to keep hair covered with dastaar, thats the next best thing to happen. And if some bibi doesnt wear keski but keeps rehit and reads gurbani, she shud also be given respect and love.I have seen some people in akj ridicule or maltreat bibis without keski, I find that terribly wrong and a huge sin.

 



Re: 6 kakkars
Posted by: 00Singh (IP Logged)
Date: January 16, 2008 03:35AM

I think this debate is pointless. One should wear a keski/dastaar etc whenever regardless. Kesh is also a necessity so what's the point of arguing?

 



Re: 6 kakkars
Posted by: khalistan_zindabaad (IP Logged)
Date: January 16, 2008 08:41AM

''Or is it because a shaheed singhs singhni or a chardikala gursikhs singhni doesn’t wear one, so that makes it fine because there chardikala, and we can’t question them. Well some of us do, and it’s time we stop idolising people, and look at our gurus teachings and examples''.

interesting quote.

thank you. . . just thnik what you wrote.

 



Re: 6 kakkars
Posted by: khalistan_zindabaad (IP Logged)
Date: January 16, 2008 09:20AM

''So please it’s a benti lets get rid of this petty debates and agreements, let’s think about it other jatha bandia believe that keski is a must, so what difference does it make if this is a kakkar or not, please explain this? It just doesn’t make sense. Is it because our elders can’t sacrifice their fashion? Or is it because a shaheed singhs singhni or a chardikala gursikhs singhni doesn’t wear one, so that makes it fine because there chardikala, and we can’t question them. Well some of us do, and it’s time we stop idolising people, and look at our gurus teachings and examples.

It don’t matter if Bhai Randheer Singh said it was a kakkar, it don’t matter if gursikhs had darshan of the Guru saying that keski needs to be brought back in to the panth, but it does matter when someone makes a mistake and hides it, scared that we will have to put our hands up and say that we were wrong.''

A benti to my fellow brother pwalla, even tho we dont meet or speak much anymore, i still have that same respect and pyaar for you as i always did. even tho we disagree on several points.

1) Who are we to judge the singhnia of shaheed singhs? would you ask the question to bhai sukhdev singh jees singhnee or bhai amrik singh jees singhnee who both dont wear dastaar

2) you are indirectly implying the singhs are kuretieh by not making there singhnees wear dastaar

3) Wear has GURU JEE stated that keski is kakkar?

4) In katha puuran brahm giani mahapurkhs have states kes is kakkar

5) wrt panj pyareh and womens equality issues. . aka men have to wwear dastaar and bibia dont, there is another issue aswell why do panj tell men to take off pajama and not to bibia . . .ohhhhhhhhhhh is that FAIR? lol

6) ALL panthic jathebandia and sampardas state kes is kakkar be they

Both Taksals
budha dal
tarna dal
Sursingh valeh aka Baba bidhi chand jees dal from time of guru hargobind sahib jee
Hoti Mardan Samparda
Nanaksar
Rara Sahib
harkhovale
5 takht sahibs
sgpc
missionary (who reject everything BUT still say kes is kakkar)
nirmalas

etc etc. . .

in the above samparadas stc there have been many many many BRAHM GIANIs and puuran gursikhs who reached they highest avastha, they all may have minor differences but all clearly state raagmala is gurbani and KES is kakkar...

i would rather believe them then a jatha made up 60-70 yrs ago.

i personally do agree that dastaar show be worn by both genders.

Thank you

 
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