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raagmala
Posted by: hardeep sengh (IP Logged)
Date: January 29, 2008 09:38AM

[www.ragmalagurbanihai.info]

can any1 confirm these pics ^^

 



Re: raagmala
Posted by: Balpreet Singh (IP Logged)
Date: January 29, 2008 12:54PM

I'll confirm it. Yes, those are real pictures.

But that doesn't mean much. When we see a hand-written saroop, we are now inclined right away to think it must be puraatan and ancient, etc. This shouldn't be. Puratan Saroops have different eras. The earlier saroops you'll see will not be very artistic at all. They won't have borders or illustrations. They'll also be in the "portrait" style while newer saroops will have fancy borders, illustrations and be oriented "landscape" ie. horizontally longer.

These saroops in the pictures look fairly recent.

This site, on the page [www.ragmalagurbanihai.info], shows a saroop as picture 3-6. Look closely at it. It does have Ragmala. But look closer at what follows Mundavani and Salok M: 5, BEFORE Ragmala is written. It says clearly "Eh bhog Sri Aad Giranth jee hai". It says clearly that this is the Bhog of Sri Aad Granth Sahib BEFORE Ragmala is written.

If you look at the same site's page on Patna Sahib Birs, you'll note that while they have Ragmala, they are preceded not by Mundavani/Salok M: 5 but by other Kachi Bani like Ratanmala, Jit Dar Lakh Muhammadan, etc.

The site is interesting, but it is far from conclusive proof that Ragmala is Gurbani.

 



Re: raagmala
Posted by: chatrik (IP Logged)
Date: January 29, 2008 01:31PM

veer Balpreet singh ji,
The jatheydar of Takht Sri Hazor Sahib was in my area some time ago...he said they still have puratan saroops there...and one of them is a saroop written by Baba Deep Singh himself.
They said it contains ragmala...

has any one seen this saroop?

He said they only do parkash of Puratan Saroops at the Takht Sahib once a year..that is during the Gurgadhi Dihara of SGGS Ji.

have any one also checked out saroops by bhai Mani singh?
I had a darshan of it once...but didn't get the chance to check the last page/

 



Re: raagmala
Posted by: Balpreet Singh (IP Logged)
Date: January 29, 2008 01:55PM

There are so many saroops being presented as being written by either Baba Deep Singh or Bhai Mani Singh. If someone could authenticate these, then some serious questions would be answered.

Bhai Joginder Singh Talwara and other Singhs once did parkash of mutliple saroops being attributed to Baba Deep Singh to compare them. They were the saroops at the Takhats. Upon comparison, no two saroops were in the same hand and they did not match.

The research on this issue needs to be done systematically and rationally. Too often we just accept it if someone tells us something is from the times of Guru Sahib or formerly owned by some puratan Gursikh.

 



Re: raagmala
Posted by: khalistan_zindabaad (IP Logged)
Date: January 29, 2008 02:49PM

listening in katha by sant jarnail singh jee he states that indiependent research was done wrt these saroops and the answer was they were written by same author with same ink etc. . .i think id beleive what sant jee ses

 



Re: raagmala
Posted by: baba amarjeet singh (IP Logged)
Date: January 29, 2008 04:44PM

yes mr k_Z you obviously would beleive what baba jarnail singh says
however other people would prefer to belive the truth, and common sense
raagmala does not fit the pattern of gurbani
raagmala does not contain truth
raagmala is taken from an erotic poem
if you listened to gurbani as much as you listened to katha, wowww, that would be great.

 



Re: raagmala
Posted by: Ekta Singh (IP Logged)
Date: January 29, 2008 05:44PM

Some people say that the Damdama bir has raag mala in, so if raag mala is in these bir then why cant it proove that it is bani or not.

Also how did raag mala get into these saroops??

Another question SGGSJEE has a numbering system, does raag mala fit according to that system?

 



Re: raagmala
Posted by: Khalsaspirit (IP Logged)
Date: January 29, 2008 05:47PM

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Khalsa jio,

Here is what khalsaspirit.com made short analysis of this website www.ragmalagurbanihai.info and honestly we can say the contents they provided have so much discrepencies that instead of favoring raagmala as Gurbani they are favoring very well that it is not Gurbani, not at all. We assume they accept the authencity of those saroops whose pictures are shown up. Having that assumption here we begin:

1) First of all as Bhai Balpreet Singh ji this following picture 3-6 of gallery3.html alone clearly proves raagmala is not bani at all. See circle yellow circle area. Before even raagmala begins it says ‘ਇਹੁ ਭੋਗ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਆਦਿ ਗਿਰਂਥ ਜੀ ਹੈ’

http://www.khalsaspirit.com/images/Berrh1.JPG

So one with common sense clearly see this is where Gurbani ends but Guru Janay if they have ey………………………..

2) Let say still they want to read raagmala as Gurbani then why stop at raagmala, why not read the procedure of preparing the ink too which also starts with IK Onakaar Satgurparsaad in picture Patna Sahib 1-2 in gallery1.html. See circle Blue

http://www.khalsaspirit.com/images/Berrh2.JPG

3) In many of pictures of Patna Sahib/Damdama Sahib Berrh the index as well pages on where raagmala begins clearly shows other non Gurbanis like RATANMALA, HAKAIATA(n) etc. See pictures of gallery1.html

http://www.khalsaspirit.com/images/Berrh3.JPG
http://www.khalsaspirit.com/images/Berrh4.JPG

http://www.khalsaspirit.com/images/Berrh5.JPG

http://www.khalsaspirit.com/images/Berrh6.JPG

http://www.khalsaspirit.com/images/Berrh7.JPG

http://www.khalsaspirit.com/images/Berrh8.JPG

http://www.khalsaspirit.com/images/Berrh9.JPG

http://www.khalsaspirit.com/images/Berrh10.JPG


So it is common sense that any bani other than Gurbani was not accepted and one can imagine how authentic these Berrhs for raagmala only.

4) On this website they also have few pictures of Berrh which have only raagmala after Gurbani. For example the following index picture of one of Berrh Damdama Sahib 4-2 of gallery4.html

http://www.khalsaspirit.com/images/Berrh11.JPG


Now in contrast to those because those clearly written either late 19th or in tweenty century but in contrast in Mudavani Pustak there are many example pictures of those which are even written in 18th century without any Kachhi Bani. For example following picture:

http://www.khalsaspirit.com/images/Berrh14.JPG


5) Following index pictures of there website which have raagmala in it if they consider these as authentic Berrhs then one very big thing will also be achieved from these that the moolmanter or Mangal is written from Ik Onkaar to Gurparsaad. Then they should also consider for that authenticity too. But they do not.

http://www.khalsaspirit.com/images/Berrh12.JPG

http://www.khalsaspirit.com/images/Berrh13.JPG


Any way from these picture anylasis it is very clear that one can not claim raagmala is Gurbani.

6) Next about the Sri Akaal Takhat Hukamnama they posted that too goes to favor of Gaini Gurdit Singh. In Hukamnama there is no mention of refusal or Ban of the Book. Only thing mentioned is few picture location were not right. This book has about 300 pages even let’s say 1 or 2 pages were agreed to change which means 298 pages were valid in eyes of Jathedaars Sahib and outcome of Hukamnama is not a Ban or Refusal to book. Which means 298 pages are true hence Akal Takhat Sahib’s Hukamana favored the book indirectly. To call Giani Gurdit Singh ji on Sri Akal Takhat one can very easily understand that how Giani Joginder Singh Vedanti was compeled at that time who too belongs the same taksal from where complaints came but thing need to note down is this that even in that meeting Jathedars could not deny the Book. However Jathedar Iqbal Singh tried to ban it which Sri Akaal Takhat rejected in Dec 2004 anyway. Every one knows about Jathedaar Iqbal Singh very well and his stance on many issues.

So, by having most of there site contents supporting that raagmala is not Gurbani we think they should change name to ragmalagurbaninaheehai.info .

Khima for any typo.

Guru Mehar Karay

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

 



Re: raagmala
Posted by: Pwalla! (IP Logged)
Date: January 30, 2008 04:46AM

khalistan_zindabaad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> listening in katha by sant jarnail singh jee he
> states that indiependent research was done wrt
> these saroops and the answer was they were written
> by same author with same ink etc. . .i think id
> beleive what sant jee ses


Yeh and by looking at PROOF posted by KhalsaSpirit and the singhs who made that site (without doing any real research) then I think we ALL believe what we see.

Look how much beadbi this is, Guru Sahib is perfect, by having Raagmalla in there it shows weakness. Our Guru is not weak, but these people won't admit to that because then that means that a very spiritual person could be wrong. hmm... Did Bhai Jarnail Singh do the research?

I think ill believe Bhai Joginder Singh Talwara, who did the research him self...

Waheguroo ji ka khalsa, waheguroo ji ki fateh

 



Re: raagmala
Posted by: Koi (IP Logged)
Date: January 30, 2008 05:02AM

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Sangat Jio,

The Damdami Taksal has made the following claims with regards to RaagMaalaa:
1) It is present it the Sri Adi Granth Sahib Ji, Kartarpuri Bir. It has been tested to see if the ink, handwritting and Ang is the same as the rest of the Baani. It has passed these tests.
2) It is present in the Bhai Banno Bir.
3) It is present in the Swaroop written by Bhai Mani Singh Ji. The same tests have been applied and it has passed.
4) It is in the four Biraa written by Baba Deep Singh Ji. These four Biraa are installed in four out of the five takhts (obviously not Akaal Takht). These swaroops match, word for word, the swaroop written by Bhai Mani Singh Ji.

Daas has got an image of the swaroop written by Bhai Mani Singh Ji, but it only shows the first Ang, and a caption at the bottom stating that RaagMaalaa is present in this Bir.

Daas requests the sangat to upload any pictures that would verify or disprove these claims, especially that of the Sri Adi Granth Sahib Ji, as it is the most puraatan swaroop.

Daas believes that this is the best way to settle this.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

 



Re: raagmala
Posted by: Ekta Singh (IP Logged)
Date: January 30, 2008 09:06AM

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Sangat Jio,

The Damdami Taksal has made the following claims with regards to RaagMaalaa:
1) It is present it the Sri Adi Granth Sahib Ji, Kartarpuri Bir. It has been tested to see if the ink, handwritting and Ang is the same as the rest of the Baani. It has passed these tests.
2) It is present in the Bhai Banno Bir.
3) It is present in the Swaroop written by Bhai Mani Singh Ji. The same tests have been applied and it has passed.
4) It is in the four Biraa written by Baba Deep Singh Ji. These four Biraa are installed in four out of the five takhts (obviously not Akaal Takht). These swaroops match, word for word, the swaroop written by Bhai Mani Singh Ji.

Daas has got an image of the swaroop written by Bhai Mani Singh Ji, but it only shows the first Ang, and a caption at the bottom stating that RaagMaalaa is present in this Bir.

Daas requests the sangat to upload any pictures that would verify or disprove these claims, especially that of the Sri Adi Granth Sahib Ji, as it is the most puraatan swaroop.

Daas believes that this is the best way to settle this.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh





WHY CANT THIS EVIDENCE PROOVE TO US THAT RAAGMALA IS BAANI??

ALSO IF RAAGMALA IS NOT BAANI, THEN HOW DID IT GET INTO ALL THESE SAROOPS. WHO STARTED THIS OFF?

PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTION GURSIKHO, BALPREET SINGH, KULBIR SINGH AND OTHER SINGHS!!

 



Re: raagmala
Posted by: hardeep sengh (IP Logged)
Date: January 30, 2008 09:28AM

wait

what is ratanmala??

in the fifth pic it says ratanmalaa mahalla 1

was it written by dhan sree guru nanak dev ji

 



Re: raagmala
Posted by: Koi (IP Logged)
Date: January 30, 2008 10:40AM

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Sangat Jio,

Daas has looked at some of the images of letters written by the jathedars of the Gurdwaras (Takhts) on this website. They all clearly state that there is no swaroop of Guru Maharaj without RaagMaalaa in the Gurdwaras (Akaal Takht Sahib, Damdmaa Sahib, Harimandir sahib, Hazoor Sahib etc). This is clear proof that RaagMaalaa is Baani.

The presence of other Kachi Baani like RatanMaalaa etc does not dissprove RaagMaalaa as part of Baani.

There are also images of puraatan swaroops without this Kach Baani (RatanMaalaa), where after Salok M:5 RaagMaalaa is present. This should be enough proof.

Daas suggests that the sangat takes time to read the LETTERS as well as looking at the images.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

 



Re: raagmala
Posted by: Balpreet Singh (IP Logged)
Date: January 30, 2008 03:47PM

The problem with the entire Ragmala debate is that we in general don't do the research or study ourselves. We rely on what others tell us and become emotional about the issue.

Koi has brought up a number of points. The first about the Kartarpuri Bir is not really valid because the description of the Kartarpuri Bir given by Kahn Singh Nabha does not match the present Bir. In fact, if we take the present Kartarpuri Bir to be authentic, it has many errors in it. Like the shabad "tanana bunnana" is in the Kartarpuri Bir written as "tatna bunana" a number of other spelling errors are present.

The Bhai Banno Bir having Ragmala is proof of nothing since it also has shabads by Mira Bai and Ratanmala, etc.

Then we come to the issue of Bhai Mani Singh saroops and saroops by Baba Deep Singh. After study, Bhai Joginder Singh Talwara could not find any such saroop that he felt was authentic since none matched any other. No academic scholar has EVER said there existed any such Bir which they have been able to find. If someone can show me these Birs or give some concrete information about them, I think it would not help just me, but everyone in general.

Finally, the pictures provided in this thread DO mean a lot. The saroop that says after Mundavani "Eh bhog Sri Aad Giranth jee hai" is very persuasive. This saroop was written before the whole Ragmala controversy. It says clearly where the Bhog is. Ragmala was added as an extra.

There was a question as to who would have added Ragmala. The answer is that the same type of person who added all the other Kachi Bani which was later removed like Jit Dar Lakh Muhammadan, Ratanamala, etc. were the same type of people who added Ragmala. They thought it was something nice to have.

Take the present Dasam Granth. There is an official Bhog to the Dasam Granth but many printed Dasam Granths have an "appendix" which isn't officially part of the Dasam Granth. This Appendix contains the poem "Nishaani-Sikhi panj harf-kaaf". This is not an accepted part of Dasam Granth but it has been added as an Appendix and today you have many young people who insist this is Dashmesh Jee's own bani and use it to say kes is a kakaar. The fact is that no scholar accepts this poem as written by Dashmesh jee.

So in the same way that you see today Dasam Granth has been given an unofficial appendix, I feel Ragmala was added the same way.

The presence of ANY saroops without ragmala or saying the bhog is at Mundavani is very persuasive since the time when these puratan saroops were written, there was no controversy on the issue.

I think we need to remember that important puratan scholars like kavi Santokh Singh and Giani Gian Singh and Pandit Tara Singh Narotam all rejected Ragmala. Giani Gian Singh and other Gianis at the time had a meeting and decided the issue and in fact erased Ragmala from a saroop that day.

 



Re: raagmala
Posted by: Harmeet Singh (IP Logged)
Date: January 30, 2008 08:47PM

Haha, wow, it has been a long time since I posted on this forum. I still checked up every now and then to see recent topics, but I never posted anything. So I just recently re-activated my account on this newly designed forum.

I find this ragmala debate much more interesting than ones in the past. This debate actually gives pictorial evidence and there is no repetition of previously stated and already known facts, so therefore only new points or pictures are brought up. I have have an interesting picture to post, but I am not sure of how I can post it. Could someone please give me instructions on how to post pictures, Thanks in advance!

 



Re: raagmala
Posted by: Koi (IP Logged)
Date: January 31, 2008 10:08AM

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Sangat Jio,

Balpreet Singh Ji has made the point that the Kartarpuri Bir has discrepencies. However, this does not dissprove RaagMaalaa

Even though the Bhai Banno Bir has other baani, it also has RaagMaalaa, and CANNOT just be cast aside because of the extra Baani.

The Damdami Taksaal officially talk of the Biraa written by Bhai Mani Singh ji and Baba Deep Singh Ji as being authentic and having RaagMaalaa present in them. THERE IS NO REASON TO DOUBT THIS.

You cannot compare the situation with Dasam Granth Sahib ji to Sri Guru granth Sahib Ji, as the various writtings of Dasam Granth Sahib Ji were composed throught the lifetime of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, and compiled AFTERWARDS by Bhai Mani Singh Ji.

Balpreet Singh Ji also makes the point of focussing on the one Bir that says after Mundavani "Eh bhog Sri Aad Giranth jee hai". RaagMaalaa is STILL present in this Bir. If you look carefully, you can see that the handwritting and the Ang and the ink is EXACTLY THE SAME. Daas suggests to Singh Sahib Ji to look at the OTHER Images and the LETTERS. This will provide sufficient proof that RaagMaalaa IS BANI.

Also, this whole idea of making a list of various Sikhs who rejected RaagMaalaa doesn't amount to much, as Daas could just as easily make a list of various MahaaPurkhs who accepted RaagMaalaa.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

 



Re: raagmala
Posted by: Khalsaspirit (IP Logged)
Date: January 31, 2008 01:07PM

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Khalsa jio,

Let's also read the truth about KARTARPURI BIRRH by Bhai KAHN SINGH NABHA. Because of his true findings no one dared to challenge Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha at that time.

http://www.khalsaspirit.com/images/R1.JPG
http://www.khalsaspirit.com/images/R2.JPG
http://www.khalsaspirit.com/images/R3.JPG
http://www.khalsaspirit.com/images/R4.JPG
http://www.khalsaspirit.com/images/R5.JPG

From earlier post with all the pictures which are shown on their website and top of those this above summary of Bhai Kahn Singh about the Kartarpuri birrh left no doubt about this kachee bani so called raagmala which does not even contain all raags of SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB Ji.

ਸਪੱਸ਼ਟ ਸਾਹਮਣੇ ਖੜੀ ਬਿੱਲੀ ਨੂੰ ਵੇਖ ਕੇ ਕੋਈ ਵੀ ਸੁਜਾਖਾ ਬਿੱਲੀ ਨੂੰ ਸ਼ੇਰ ਨਹੀ ਆਖੂਗਾ ਪਰ ਜੇਕਰ ਕੋਈ ਜਾਣ ਬੁੱਝ ਕੇ ਅੱਖਾ ਮੂੰਦ ਕੇ ਸ਼ੇਰ ਉਏ ਸ਼ੇਰ ਉਏ ਦਾ ਰਾਗ ਹੀ ਅਲਾਪੀ ਜਾਵੇ, ਫੇਰ ਤਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਉਹਦੇ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਅਰਦਾਸ ਹੀ ਕੀਤੀ ਜਾ ਸਕਦੀ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਮਹਾਰਾਜ ਇਸਨੂੰ ਸਮੱਤ ਬਖਸ਼ਣ।

Guru Mehar Karay

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

 



Re: raagmala
Posted by: Harmeet Singh (IP Logged)
Date: February 03, 2008 01:48PM

Vahiguru Jee Ka Khalsa Vahiguru Jee Kee Fateh|

Another picture to add to this discussion.


http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/Scriptures/Guru%20Granth/guruGS.jpg


Vahiguru Jee Ka Khalsa Vahiguru Jee Kee Fateh|

 





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