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Ucharan advice
Posted by: Atma Singh (IP Logged)
Date: February 06, 2008 12:27AM

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹ

Khalsa Jeeo,

A few questions:

1. Should we always pronoune the word ਤੂ as ਤੂੰ or not? how do we decide?

2. Re: gurfateh - should we place bindeeaa(n) underneath ਖ in ਖਾਲਸਾ and ਫ in ਫਤਹ? I'm beginning to think that they should have bindeeaa(n) because there both persian or arabic words and so it's likely these letter sshould have gutteral sounds (i.e. using throat)

3. Currently I say ਕਿਰਪਾ and ਕਿ੍ਪਾ as they appear i.e. i pronounce both as they are. However, i've started to think that maybe I should pronoune one way ot the other because in some places if I were to pronounce the 'ra pair' sound as it appears, it wouldn't seem right. I ntoiced this morning during Jaap Sahib the following: ਚਕ੍ and ਬਕ੍ (I think they appear with adhak - forgive me; haven't worked out which key to use to display adhak!). If I were to pronounce as they appear I would have say chattr(a) and bakr(a) instead of what i currently say which is chattr - i.e. if i pronounce kripa then i need to pronounce kr at the end here as well...?

Dhanvaad.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

 



Re: Ucharan advice
Posted by: Harinder Singh (IP Logged)
Date: February 06, 2008 04:09AM

really tough questions. I think the best way to go about is to wait for jyot vigaas. Once that happens, Satguru jee will give you complete santhiyaa which will include shud ucharan, vishrams, viakaran, meanings. I tried to learn a bit about these things on my own but it gave me lots of khuaari,hahahaha.Naam ton bina vidyaa ve pangaa he hai.

 



Re: Ucharan advice
Posted by: Atma Singh (IP Logged)
Date: February 08, 2008 12:23AM

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਹ

sangat jeeo,

i didn't reach jyot vigaas level this morning so still need some help with the above q's... :-)

veer kulbir singh jee - any opinions, with reasoning behind them?

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

 



Re: Ucharan advice
Posted by: Harinder Singh (IP Logged)
Date: February 08, 2008 11:50PM

<< didn't reach jyot vigaas level this morning so still need some help with the above q's... :-) >>
Pyare veerji, thats really sweet.
I am 100% sure that when a pakka prem rishta gets extablished between aatma(wife) and Satguru/Waheguru(Husband),all santhiyaa problems are solved and this is the BEST way to get santhiyaa. However, not everyone gets up to this level, so taking santhiyaa from a fellow sikh is a nice thing to do.But these days many people have made this santhiyaa into a money making business or they give santhiyaa in haumme and act as gyanis or vidya-masters and common amritdharis assume such santhiyaa givers to be some great high avashta mahapurush type people.
But on this website, things are different and people who give santhiyaa dont have any such motives.They are great people who give santhiya with the sole intention of seva and charrdikala of the panth and i dont deserve to even lick the feet of such people.

 



Re: Ucharan advice
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: February 11, 2008 06:13AM

--------
1. Should we always pronoune the word ਤੂ as ਤੂੰ or not? how do we decide?
----------

ਤੂ (without tippi) is spoken in Hindi or Urdu whereas ਤੂੰ (with Tippi) is spoken in Punjabi. Normally it's safe to read this word as written in Gurbani unless one knows for sure which form to pronounce.


----------
2. Re: gurfateh - should we place bindeeaa(n) underneath ਖ in ਖਾਲਸਾ and ਫ in ਫਤਹ? I'm beginning to think that they should have bindeeaa(n) because there both persian or arabic words and so it's likely these letter sshould have gutteral sounds (i.e. using throat)
--------

You are right, that first alphabets of Khalsa and Fateh are pronounced in Vishesh Dhuni (i.e. placing bindi in the bottom). Faffa (with vishesh dhuni) is not a gutteral sound but fine faffa where as without bindi this alphabet is like phapha (as used in Phaphe-kutni).

--------
3. Currently I say ਕਿਰਪਾ and ਕਿ੍ਪਾ as they appear i.e. i pronounce both as they are. However, i've started to think that maybe I should pronoune one way ot the other because in some places if I were to pronounce the 'ra pair' sound as it appears, it wouldn't seem right.
--------

Originally (in Sanskrit) this word ਕਿਰਪਾ or ਕਿ੍ਪਾ is without the sihaari. Most people place the sihaari on the raarra and say kripa when pronouncing ਕਿ੍ਪਾ but I think the sihaari should be placed on 'kakka' and not on 'raara'. This becomes clear in case of ਕਿਰਪਾ where clearly the sihaari is placed on kakka and not on raara.

--------------
I ntoiced this morning during Jaap Sahib the following: ਚਕ੍ and ਬਕ੍ (I think they appear with adhak - forgive me; haven't worked out which key to use to display adhak!). If I were to pronounce as they appear I would have say chattr(a) and bakr(a) instead of what i currently say which is chattr - i.e. if i pronounce kripa then i need to pronounce kr at the end here as well...?
---------

All I can say in this respect is that try not to say "chattra" but control the sound of 'a' in the end and say Chattr.

Baani Agam Agaadh Bodh hai jee. Galtiaan maaf karniyaan jee.

Daas,
Kulbir Singh

 



Re: Ucharan advice
Posted by: Atma Singh (IP Logged)
Date: February 15, 2008 03:27AM

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹ

Veer Jee,

was reading today's hukamnama sahib:

ਸੂਹੀਮਹਲਾ੫॥
ਉਮਕਿਓਹੀਉਮਿਲਨਪ੍ਰਭਤਾਈ॥
ਖੋਜਤਚਰਿਓਦੇਖਉਪ੍ਰਿਅਜਾਈ॥
ਸੁਨਤਸਦੇਸਰੋਪ੍ਰਿਅਗ੍ਰਿਹਿਸੇਜਵਿਛਾਈ॥
ਭ੍ਰਮਿਭ੍ਰਮਿਆਇਓਤਉਨਦਰਿਨਪਾਈ॥੧॥
ਕਿਨਬਿਧਿਹੀਅਰੋਧੀਰੈਨਿਮਾਨੋ॥
ਮਿਲੁਸਾਜਨਹਉਤੁਝੁਕੁਰਬਾਨੋ॥੧॥
ਰਹਾਉ॥
ਏਕਾਸੇਜਵਿਛੀਧਨਕੰਤਾ॥
ਧਨਸੂਤੀਪਿਰੁਸਦਜਾਗੰਤਾ॥
ਪੀਓਮਦਰੋਧਨਮਤਵੰਤਾ॥
ਧਨਜਾਗੈਜੇਪਿਰੁਬੋਲੰਤਾ॥੨॥
ਭਈਨਿਰਾਸੀਬਹੁਤੁਦਿਨਲਾਗੇ॥
ਦੇਸਦਿਸੰਤਰਮੈਸਗਲੇਝਾਗੇ॥
ਖਿਨੁਰਹਨੁਨਪਾਵਉਬਿਨੁਪਗਪਾਗੇ॥
ਹੋਇਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੁਪ੍ਰਭਮਿਲਹਸਭਾਗੇ॥੩॥
ਭਇਓਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੁਸਤਸੰਗਿਮਿਲਾਇਆ॥
ਬੂਝੀਤਪਤਿਘਰਹਿਪਿਰੁਪਾਇਆ॥
ਸਗਲਸੀਗਾਰਹੁਣਿਮੁਝਹਿਸੁਹਾਇਆ॥
ਕਹੁਨਾਨਕਗੁਰਭਰਮੁਚੁਕਾਇਆ॥੪॥
ਜਹਦੇਖਾਤਹਪਿਰੁਹੈਭਾਈ॥
ਖੋਲ੍‍ਓਿਕਪਾਟੁਤਾਮਨੁਠਹਰਾਈ॥੧॥
ਰਹਾਉਦੂਜਾ॥੫॥


the following words stood out: ਤੁਝੁ and ਝਾਗੇ

please can you tell us on which occassions we should pronounce ਝ in different ways i.e. like a strong 'ch' sound or a 'jh' sound. any rules which could help someone correctly pronoune them.

ps - have begun to notice that even using GUCA to convert gurmukhee fonts, unicode is unable to 'translate' gurbaaNee correctly in many cases. take the word above which appears as ਖੋਲ੍‍ਓ (in the panktee above the 2nd rahao panktee). it should have a siharee and appear as

Koil@E




...this is something for us to keep in mind when using unicode on the www to display gurbaaNee.

it seeems unicode is often unable to display combinations of additional characters around alphabets. this suggests that it is definitely more geared around displaying modern panjabee as opposed to 'archaic panjabee' i.e. gurbaaNee, which feature lots of pairee characters and various combinations.

bit of a shame really - will try and communicate with those who work on 'panjabee unicode' to see if this can be resolved in the future although i imagine that wouldn't be a simple thing...

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

 





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