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Tapoban/gurmat views on this issue
Posted by: Ekta Singh (IP Logged)
Date: April 01, 2008 02:54PM

What is gurmat view on this, could Kulbir Singh and other gursikhs please answer?

UK's first hybrid embryos created

Scientists at Newcastle University have created part-human, part-animal hybrid embryos for the first time in the UK, the BBC can reveal.

The embryos survived for up to three days and are part of medical research into a range of illnesses.

It comes a month before MPs are to debate the future of such research.

The Catholic Church describes it as "monstrous". But medical bodies and patient groups say such research is vital for our understanding of disease.

They argue that the work could pave the way for new treatments for conditions such as Parkinson's and Alzheimer's.

Egg shortages

Under the microscope the round bundles of cells look like any other three-day-old embryos.

In fact they are hybrids - part-human, part-animal.

We are dealing with a clump of cells which would never go on to develop

Professor John Burn
Newcastle University

What are hybrid embryos?

They were created by injecting DNA derived from human skin cells into eggs taken from cows ovaries which have had virtually all their genetic material removed.

So what possible justification can scientists offer for doing what the Catholic Church has branded "experiments of Frankenstein proportion"?

The Newcastle team say they are using cow ovaries because human eggs from donors are a precious resource and in short supply.

The hybrid embryos are purely for research and would never be allowed to develop beyond 14 days when they are still smaller than a pinhead.

Scientists want to extract stem cells, the body's master cells, from the embryos, in order to increase understanding of a whole range of diseases from diabetes to stroke and ultimately to produce treatments.

Professor John Burn from Newcastle University says the research is entirely ethical.

"This is licensed work which has been carefully evaluated. This is a process in a dish, and we are dealing with a clump of cells which would never go on to develop. It's a laboratory process and these embryos would never be implanted into anyone.

"We now have preliminary data which looks promising but this is very much work in progress and the next step is to get the embryos to survive to around six days when we can hopefully derive stem cells from them."

Free vote allowed

The research in Newcastle was approved by the UK's fertility regulator, the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority.

It is difficult to imagine a single piece of legislation which more comprehensively attacks the sanctity and dignity of human life than this particular bill

Cardinal Keith O'Brien

It acted ahead of the passing of new legislation which will specifically allow the creation of hybrid embryos so as not to hold back research.

The bill setting out the new legislation is not due to be debated in the House of Commons until next month.

It is highly controversial and last week Prime Minister Gordon Brown gave in to demands for a free vote on the issue.

Critics from the Roman Catholic Church say the creation of hybrids is immoral.

"It is difficult to imagine a single piece of legislation which more comprehensively attacks the sanctity and dignity of human life than this particular bill," Cardinal Keith O'Brien, archbishop of St Andrews and Edinburgh declared last week.

Not for the first time developments in science have outpaced the debate from legislators.

For supporters of embryo research the creation of hybrid embryos is a small but significant move forward.

For opponents it is a step too far.



Re: Tapoban/gurmat views on this issue
Posted by: Ekta Singh (IP Logged)
Date: April 06, 2008 12:42PM



Re: Tapoban/gurmat views on this issue
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: April 07, 2008 04:12PM

Singhs at Tapoban have not discussed this in Sangati form and as such don't have an opinion on this. My personal views on this are similar to the Catholic Church i.e. its a no no as far as I am concerned. I have not done deep thinking on this subject but from the first look, it does not seem right. According to Gurmat, the jeev-atma arrives at the time of conceiving and there seems to be some paap involved in this. I could be wrong and at a later date, if I give this more thougth, I will post my views on this subject.

Kulbir Singh


Re: Tapoban/gurmat views on this issue
Posted by: sidhu.hcl (IP Logged)
Date: April 08, 2008 03:02AM

Ekta Singh ? ji im very concerned with the topic and i want to express some different type of thinking i dont know weather sikhism accepts it or not . but veiws i have is very personal.

We all know one body is having one "atma" soul. But scientist use to say our body is consisting of lakhs and crores of living cells, binded together in the form tissues. and if they are living cells they must be having their independent souls. this means our body is consisting of crores of living souls.

But here again contradiction appears if our body is having crores of independent living cell tht all have souls howcome whn a person dies they all are killed instantly. may be oxygen?? but i think our blood He2+ heamoglobin carries enough oxygen to make our cells living at least for some hours or days. why every part or organ stop funtioning almost simultaneously.

I think here the role of god comes to play. the development of human embryo in cow's overy cell is a good sign if it all goes thru. futher some more things will to us , it will offer great help in medical segment. But yet thre are many many years to go. lets see ....


Re: Tapoban/gurmat views on this issue
Posted by: Harinder Singh (IP Logged)
Date: April 08, 2008 05:58AM

the whole creation is made up of matter(5 tatts) namely:
pavann (gaseous atoms or elements)
paani (liquid atoms or elements)
dharti (solid atoms or elements)
basantarr or agnnii (fire)
akaash (space)

creation is further divided into living matter(biology) and non-living matter(chemistry).
living ( the combination of 5 tatts that contains jeev atmaas. Such combinations are of 84 lakh types which we call joonaan)
non-living (combination of 5 tatts that is not living ie. does not have the jeev aatma). The non-living matter does contain the jyot of Satguru/Akal purakh, infact EVERYTHING contains this jyot.

can humans make living matter ? NOOO because the jeev aatma enters matter only at the HUKAM of Akal purakh.
can humans make non-living matter ? Yes but in my personal view everything made by humans has only distured(ruined) the creation(global warming, diseases, extreme climates, droughts, famines, earthquakes etc. etc.) and we are on the verge on the biggest catastrophe of the human history(last 4 yuggs)


Re: Tapoban/gurmat views on this issue
Posted by: Harcharan Singh (IP Logged)
Date: April 09, 2008 06:02AM

Bhai Kulbir Singh Ji is right in his thinking thus far. The jeev atma exists in the womb the same time as the egg is fertilised and settles in the womb. There are many references to evidence this in Gurbani i.e.

कहु नानक प्राणी पहिलै पहरै धरि पाइता उदरै माहि ॥१॥

It's a complicated subject due to the egg being used being that of an animal, the funny thing is that people have more problem with this than if the egg was human, which in my opinion would simplify the matter. The only reason human eggs are not being used is because they are in short supply.

If a human egg was was used, then we know that human egg is porbably the most precious thing on Earth, as it is through this, that the gift of human form is created - the only form through which moksha can be attained.

ਸਚੁ ਕਰਣੀ ਦੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਦਰੁ ਘਰੁ ਮਹਲੁ ਪਿਆਰਿ ॥
सचु करणी दे पाईऐ दरु घरु महलु पिआरि ॥

So if it were human egg, in my opinion, it would be a maha-paap, as this is the most important element (alongside sperm) which Vaheguru has created to produce precious human life.

The animal egg and human DNA issue is more complicated. we know that animals are a lower form of life because they gain mukti, and have been given for human use in many ways (without going into the meat debate), at the very least used for milk products and labour by non-meat eaters. So on this angle, it could be argued that using an animal egg is fine, as people eat animal eggs in any case.

Further complicating issue is that the egg is that of a cow, which some Sikhss and Sikh texts (maryadai etc) hold sacred.

The crux of the matter is this, the human DNA. Although this isn't using the natural method to create life i.e. sperm and egg, it does create life. scientists argue that the life will only be a collection of cells... but will it. This is not a hard fact. For instance how are clones created? Man is dabbling in a relatively new area of sicence. The hybrid embryo is going to be 99.9% human and 0.01% cow, so does that constitute human life? It needs to be human in order for it be used for the stem cell business.

In my humble opinion, this clearly shows we are tampering with the basic elements of human life i.e. DNA (which is the main ingredient in egg/sperm).

The other question that arises through this issue is right to life. Scientists in this field generally believe this occurs after a birth, thus clearing the way for their research on ethical grounds.

Gurbani however, many, mnay times say otherwise.



Re: Tapoban/gurmat views on this issue
Posted by: Harinder Singh (IP Logged)
Date: April 09, 2008 07:37AM

great post pyare harcharan singh jee
i have a benti can u answer my post in the thread "amrit sanchars 1699-1708"
your servant


Re: Tapoban/gurmat views on this issue
Posted by: Harcharan Singh (IP Logged)
Date: April 10, 2008 02:00AM

Sorry, was meant to read animals can't gain mukti.


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