Just yesterday I had the opportunity to attend a discussion given by gurbkash Singh (some Sikh scholar). He did a bit of a talk ad then there was a question answer period where some one posed the question about vegetarianism in Sikhism. The speaker was anti vegetarianism. He stated that "Our Sikh Panth is split up into two. Ones who follow saints and the educated lot. The educated lot eat meat the ones who follow saints don't. I though this statement given was complete false. I felt like getting up and debating him. But I lacked the knowledge and education to respond. Can some of the sangat please guide daas. So this situation never happens again.

May be the 'educated lot' isn't educated about the effects of eating meat afterall. i found this info about effects of eating meat and its impact on our body.
[www.restoreunity.org]

And we vegetarians can educate ourselves about the benefits of a vege diet.
[holistic-nutrition.suite101.com]

And finally some facts about meat-eating
[www.skrewtips.com]

Bha Ji please read this article it may help :

[www.info-sikh.com]

I would love if one of the Tapoban Singh;s could give a response. It is REALLY needed.

Quote:

"The speaker was anti vegetarianism. He stated that "Our Sikh Panth is split up into two. Ones who follow saints and the educated lot."

Quote:

"For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seed of murder and pain cannot reap joy and love." -Pythagoras

The speaker had an agenda, and the agenda was to split the Panth. When the British were ruling India, the tactic was to divide and conquer. They knew majority of Indians were vegetarian. To undermine religious cohesion and national identity, they opened slaughterhouses and put beef on the market. In this way they sought to pollute the spiritual jeevan of the people, and essentially corrupt them. Corrupted people are more pliable and easy to manipulate. They spend hard earned money buying products to enrich the businesses which perpetuate more corruptions.

Companies try to create a market for their product. Paapis try to create public acceptance of their paap. But it's just another face of Maya to delude and deceive people. If you immerse yourself in a lifestyle, inner and outer, which is manmukh, that's what you'll become. And the pressures to do this are everywhere. The propagandists for why you should compromise your spirituality are everywhere. They even want to put the food in your hand and explain why it's better to eat the dirt of their low vibration.

Gurbani is on higher scale of thought than what ignorant fools preach in the name of education. Educated fools have given us the epidemic of cancer, mad cow disease, heart disease from diet which feasts on death. They have covered the beautiful earth with pesticides and poisons, slaughterhouses...because these philosophies treat life forms as expendable for selfish benefit. And all living beings are interrelated and have energy presence of Akal Purakh. It matters how you treat them. These educated philosophies don't really believe in the atma at all. They are completely against nature, without soul, against the God.

This is education? And you will eat those destructive philosophies, ingest that suffering, and partake of that karam with every bite of dead flesh. This is the mouth which then says paat? These are the hands which touch Gurbani? Our Sikh Panth is split up into two. Ones who try to follow Guru jee, and ones who follow their own manmukh education which justifies horribly wrong things.

~bhull chak maaf

Quote:

"The World Health Organization has determined that dietary factors account for at least 30 percent of all cancers in Western countries and up to 20 percent in developing countries. When cancer researchers started to search for links between diet and cancer, one of the most noticeable findings was that people who avoided meat were much less likely to develop the disease. Large studies in England and Germany showed that vegetarians were about 40 percent less likely to develop cancer compared to meat eaters."
[www.cancerproject.org]

Quote:

"For several decades, cattle feed had included a cheap protein supplement made from the carcasses of other animals, including sheep and cows. BSE probably arose when sheep infected with scrapie or cows with BSE were turned into feed. The feed then infected other cows that ate it, and when those animals died, they were fed back to more cows, creating a rapidly escalating epidemic. It was a kind of cattle cannibalism...Almost overnight, cattle throughout the country became infected, shaking uncontrollably, turning aggressive, and losing coordination. There is no cure for this mysterious disease, and it is always fatal. Desperate to halt the spread of mad cow disease, England destroyed nearly 2 million cattle. But it was too late. Since 1985, thousands of infected cows may have entered the food chain."
[www.pbs.org]"

Quote:

"In the search for ever-cheaper feed, factory farms throughout the world have shifted from grass and hay to newspapers, sawdust, wood chips, cardboard boxes, cement dust, waste water from nuclear power plants, maggot-infested grains, food contaminated by roaches and rodents, human and animal sewage sludge, and, last but not least, the bodies, brains, bones, organs, and entrails of sheep and cattle...Moreover, it is easy to misdiagnose CJD as Alzheimer’s disease, the fourth leading cause of death in the U.S., currently afflicting two to three million people. The symptoms of the two diseases are similar, and the victims’ brains have the same spongy appearance, suggesting to scientists like Carleton Gajdusek and Stanley Prusiner that Alzheimer’s is really a prion disease...a hidden epidemic could be lurking."

"Clearly one way to avoid the very real dangers of nvCJD is to become a vegetarian. As BSE expert Richard Lacey writes, "the simple and safest answer of course is to stop eating animals." Even then, however, is one completely safe? nvCJD can be contracted through hundreds of pharmaceutical products such as bovine insulin. Three dozen marketed drugs are made from cattle tissue and organs, and hundreds more contain bovine blood. Various diet and energy supplements are made from raw cow organs and glands that promise strength and abundant health could easily be infected with deadly prions."

"We are in a mass experiment which is killing us. Never before have diseased ruminants (sheep) been fed to other ruminants (cows) and then fed to humans. We have interfered with the whole process of nature and now what is happening is one of our worst nightmares." Tim Lang, Professor of Food Policy at Thales Valley University
[www.zianet.com]

Quote:

"The use of six growth hormones 17ß-oestradiol, progesterone, testosterone, zeranol, trenbolone and melengestrol acetate (MGA) for growth promotion in cattle pose a risk to the consumers, but with different levels of conclusive evidence. This is the main finding of the Scientific Committee for Veterinary Measures relating to Public Health which has unanimously adopted an opinion on potential risks to human health from hormone residues in meat and meat products. The adverse effects include developmental, neurobiological, genotoxic and carcinogenic effects."
[ec.europa.eu]

Quote:

They are screaming.
[www.youtube.com]

iqlµg mhlw 5 Gru 1 (723-13)
tilang mehlaa 5 ghar 1
Tilang, Fifth Mehl, First House:

<> siqgur pRswid ] (723-13)
ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

Kwk nUr krdM Awlm dunIAwie ] (723-13, iqlµg, mÚ 5)
khaak noor kardaN aalam dunee-aa-ay.
The Lord infused His Light into the dust, and created the world, the universe.

Asmwn ijmI drKq Awb pYdwieis Kudwie ]1] (723-14, iqlµg, mÚ 5)
asmaan jimee darkhat aab paidaa-is khudaa-ay. ||1||
The sky, the earth, the trees, and the water - all are the Creation of the Lord. ||1||

bMdy csm dIdM Pnwie ] (723-14, iqlµg, mÚ 5)
banday chasam deedaN fanaa-ay.
O human being, whatever you can see with your eyes, shall perish.

dunˆØIAw murdwr KurdnI gwPl hvwie ] rhwau ] (723-14, iqlµg, mÚ 5)
duneeN-aa murdaar khurdanee gaafal havaa-ay. rahaa-o.
The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed. ||Pause||

gYbwn hYvwn hrwm kusqnI murdwr bKorwie ] (723-15, iqlµg, mÚ 5)
gaibaan haivaan haraam kustanee murdaar bakhoraa-ay.
Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat.

idl kbj kbjw kwdro dojk sjwie ]2] (723-15, iqlµg, mÚ 5)
dil kabaj kabjaa kaadro dojak sajaa-ay. ||2||
So control your urges, or else you will be seized by the Lord, and thrown into the tortures of hell. ||2||

vlI inAwmiq ibrwdrw drbwr imlk Kwnwie ] (723-16, iqlµg, mÚ 5)
valee ni-aamat biraadaraa darbaar milak khaanaa-ay.
Your benefactors, presents, companions, courts, lands and homes

jb AjrweIlu bsqnI qb ic kwry ibdwie ]3] (723-16, iqlµg, mÚ 5)
jab ajraa-eel bastanee tab chay kaaray bidaa-ay. ||3||
- when Azraa-eel, the Messenger of Death seizes you, what good will these be to you then? ||3||

hvwl mwlUmu krdM pwk Alwh ] (723-17, iqlµg, mÚ 5)
havaal maaloom kardaN paak alaah.
The Pure Lord God knows your condition.

bugo nwnk Ardwis pyis drvys bMdwh ]4]1] (723-17, iqlµg, mÚ 5)
bugo naanak ardaas pays darvays bandaah. ||4||1||
O Nanak, recite your prayer to the holy people. ||4||1||
--------------------------------------------------------

kbIr jorI kIey julmu hY khqw nwau hlwlu ] (1374-11, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
kabeer joree kee-ay julam hai kahtaa naa-o halaal.
Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.

dPqir lyKw mWgIAY qb hoiego kaunu hvwlu ]187] (1374-11, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
daftar laykhaa maaNgee-ai tab ho-igo ka-un havaal. ||187||
When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then? ||187||

kbIr KUbu Kwnw KIcrI jw mih AMimRqu lonu ] (1374-12, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.

hyrw rotI kwrny glw ktwvY kaunu ]188] (1374-12, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un. ||188||
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread? ||188||

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Khalsa jio,

Besides the many medical reasons Gurmat prohibits consuming meat. We do not know if you are able to read

Quote:

"Also nice to see comments from old yet new GurSikh who compared the thinking of adopting Gurmat by khalsaspirit.com to RSS and even did not spare so honorable moderators of Tapoban.org to put in same category."

"Adopting Gurmat by khalsaspirit.com to RSS ." I don't know about this. But I did post a criticism about all the RSS points of view which were propagandizing the old forum. I believe it was Khalsaspirit as an individual poster, not a website who attacked the slogan of the militancy movement, "Khalistan Zindabad" as anti-Gurmat equating it with being "Zindabad Murdabad," which is an RSS position. It was at this point that the forums went down and further discussion could not be continued and I made a criticism which was not specific. Perhaps I'm mistaken, it's been awhile now.

A lot of posts on the previous forum were sympathetic to RSS and Indian government positions and highly critical of the Khalistani movement. When moderators allow these positions it can be good because it encourages discussion, but bad when the positions promote the RSS and genuinely Panthic views do not answer the criticisms they raise. A forum can become like a missionary board for RSS propaganda when not properly addressing the criticisms, or when numerous posters present only the RSS argument. Perhaps I'm wrong. But it was this specifically which was the concern and disappointment about the Tapoban forums.

We can discuss many positions. But Brahmanistic opinions of Gursikhi as rejecting Hindu roots and collaborating with Abrahamic Pakistani Muslims were the reason for the genocidal attack on Sikhs during the militancy period. RSS views continue to accuse Shaheed Singhs of the time as being traitors to India without accountability for Indian terrorism. Today we have a "War on Terror," and groups like RSS who equate Singhs with terrorism, Pakistani Islamics, and hijacked airplanes are causing untold harm to the Sikh community. Even if someone only wears a jacket with a decal from a gatka academy which "looks" like the ISYF, Indian agents want renewed persecutions and suppression. And they are willing to jeopardize the safety of ALL Sikhs in host countries to do so. Indian agents are working hard on pushing this prejudice to Canadian and US media outlets, encouraging renewed persecution of all Sikhs as "terrorists." Because US and Canada can't tell the difference between a Khalistani and an ordinary Sikh with kesh and dastaar.

So to ignore these kinds of public slanders and attacks on the Sikh Freedom Movement, or fail to place in context such discussions, actually promotes the anti-Panthic viewpoint, because thats all people will see. There is a very deliberate campaign to discredit all Sikhs and associate their organizations, including Akhand Kirtani Jatha with terrorism and in the US that would cause all of us to lose basic rights of Constitutional safeguards and citizenship, putting us in the nebulous category of "enemy combatants." The entire Jatha or anyone associated with them, if such a declaration of terrorist organization is made, open all of us to torture, imprisonment, and through Military Tribunals, potentially execution. So to allow the RSS to promote their views on Sikh forums is beyond dangerous to your Sikh brothers and sisters in the US.

I recognize the Tapoban Singhs practice a pure form of Gurmat Gursikhi. And I, and so many people respect and love them for this. You are, all of you, shining lights in the Khalsa Panth. However, these discussions do move into the realm of politics. I was pleased to see the forum go down when it did. Because it just seemed like so many attacks by multiple individuals were criticisms of Khalistani positions, and even against the shaheed Singhs. A fresh start for the forum is a good thing.

Why bother to criticize the Khalistan Movement? It was tortured to death and died in a hail of bullets and unjust accusations years ago. At least give due respect for the great Gurmat Gursikhs who struggled within it, for something good for all Sikhs, in this era of evil, rightly or wrongly, for love of the Sikh Kaum. They shouted "Khalistan Zindabad." Why disrespect that now? Why encourage the RSS viewpoint which trashes the memory of defenders of the Faith while endangering us all in a "war on terror" that can't tell the difference between a Muslim and a Sikh, or deliberately blurs distinctions?

~bhull chak maaf karni

Homeland Security Contracts for Vast New Detention Camps
[news.pacificnews.org]

Migrant Prisons in Texas --maggots in food, rapes, beatings
[bsnorrell.blogspot.com]

Immigration Emergency?
[www.youtube.com]

Riot Police Respond to Immigration Reform Rally
[www.youtube.com]

Blackwater
[www.youtube.com]

Opposition to Blackwater USA's Plans for New Private Military Base Near Mexican Border
[www.afterdowningstreet.org]

Coming to a Community Near You: Blackwater
[www.inteldaily.com]
"The training and potential political indoctrination of police officers by the extreme right-wing and proto-fascist Blackwater, coupled with the politicization of the Justice Department and U.S. courts, has the potential for the streets of Chicago, Dallas, Los Angeles, Atlanta, New York, and Washington, DC, as well as Chillicothe, Harvey Cedars, and Elmira to turn as bloody as the streets of Baghdad and Fallujah."

Operation Urban Warrior 2000: Training exercises-American military rounding up the population into detention camps. (these are actors paid to simulate average Americans). War on Terror, or war on you?
[www.youtube.com]

Chip Implants For Immigrant Workers?
"VeriChip's Silverman bandied about the idea of chipping foreigners on national television Tuesday, emboldened by the Bush Administration call to know "who is in our country and why they are here." He told "Fox & Friends" that the VeriChip could be used to register guest workers, verify their identities as they cross the border, and "be used for enforcement purposes at the employer level."
[www.drudge.com]

Chip Implants Linked to Animal Tumors
[www.washingtonpost.com]

'Enemy Combatants' in Court
"The significance of the cases goes well beyond the two prisoners, and the consequences of a ruling for the government are frightening. Mr. Padilla's lawyers do not exaggerate when they tell the court that if their client loses, "it would mean that for the foreseeable future, any citizen, anywhere, at any time, would be subject to indefinite military detention on the unilateral order of the President." That formula for totalitarianism has never been the law in America."
[www.nytimes.com]

US does not use torture: Bush
"The FBI also released earlier this year some emails dating from 2004 sent by agents returning from missions to Guantanamo in which they denounced the mistreatment which they witnessed. They talked about detainees being forcibly shaven, handcuffed to the ground for more than 24 hours, or even parade before savage dogs... And she suggested the harsh interrogation techniques had support and understanding of the American public."
[afp.google.com]

Quote:

"There they cut off all my clothes and forcefully shaved our beards and heads."

Freed Mauritanian Guantanamo prisoner says was tortured
"He told the press that US soldiers "urinated on the Koran" in the presence of prisoners." Imagine what will happen if this "War on Terror" ever expands to include Sikhs?
[afp.google.com]

Investigators probing Sikh militants-Jehadi links in blast
[www.hindu.com]

Counter-Terrorism Blog: "It is suspected that this could be a handy work of a evil nexus comprising local Khalistani militants affiliated to Babbar Khalsa International (BKI) and some jihadi elements possibly Lashkar e-Toiba cadres."
[counterterrorismblog.org]

Khalistani elements still in Pakistan: BJP
"The BJP leader wanted to know what was the accountability of the National Security Advisor. “He [the NSA] is acting only as a scare-monger. What concrete and specific steps are being taken to effectively counter terrorism?” Responsibility must be fixed. BJP leaders blamed the UPA government for repealing the Prevention of Terrorism Act, saying this sent out the wrong message."
[www.hindu.com]

Some time people say dont follow anybody just "follow Guru Sahib ji only" But once my brother ask Prof. Darshan Singh. He said it is ok to eat. It is only restricted in bhagat bani. But I wonder that is also part of SGGS Ji. So why the diffrance who wrote it. It is in Bani so it is no no. So how come people like him make such remarks.
Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh

VahegurooJeeKaKhalsa,VahegurooJeeKeeFateh!

"So how come people like him make such remarks."

Probabaly because, with all due respect, they treat Siree Guroo Sahib Jee as a book, a source of knowledge which is able to contradict itself.

The Panth has yet to even begin to accept the Shabad Guroo concept - the fact that the majority of ther Panth condones Pad-Ched of Saroops is also symptomatic of this 'our Guroo is a book' mentality...how else could you condone altering your Guroo's Roop?

ਵਾਹਿਗ�ਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗ�ਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ