Vaaheguruu ji ka khalsa, Vaheguruu ji ki fatehh

Here are some files uploaded by sevadaars in regards to Santhiya from bani pronounciations to katha, narrated by Bh. Jaswant Singh Jee (Bhagat Ji) of TO.

Santhya Files: [www.sikhvibes.com]

Katha of Sukhmani Saahib: [www.sikhvibes.com]


Vaheguruuu

Dhan Dhan, kirpa, student of vadeh mahapurkh sant giani gurbachan singh jee

Forgive me Khalsa Ji,

Just listened to Japji Sahib file in "Nitnem Shud Uchaaran" folder.

The pronunciation sounds strange and not familiar. Are you sure he is a student of Damdami Taksaal?


I just heard the 1st Pauri and he says "Japo" (rather than "Jap").

"Aadi sacho" (rather than "aad sach").


Just wished to share this. Don't wish to be insulting or rude considering my own Gurbani knowledge is nil.

If someone can clarify the school of practice which the Baba ji in the audio is going by for Gurbani pronunciation.

Thanks.

Bhul Chuk Maaf.

Listen to the katha done also, baba jee is a very chardi kala gursikh, the jatha singhs call him bhagat jee and everyone recognises the name. It dsnt sound familiar because vvery rare singhs do pronounciation in that much depth, when one takes santhia they are tought like that. He is a very old vidairthi of taksal from sant gurbachan singh jees time and his rehat is very very very strict, maybe the tapoban singhs know him r sangat from that area, they rarely ever leave the house so wont be seen out that much.

IF you listen to singh sahib ram singhs ucharan it is vvery similar to that, depends how much abhiyaas and time one puts into practising the santhia. But speaking to singhs i do know that baghat jee is Chardi kalaa

not only is bhagat jee a student of vaday mahapurkh, he is also the santhia ustaad of many of todays big name paathis, kathavachaks and granthis.

ssa

as Manvir Singh is suggesting this bhagat is pronouncing the siharees (i) and aunkars (u) at the end of Gurbani words

my question to you all is can someone tell me what group/personalities also do this? who pronounce Gurbani AS IT IS WRITTEN- without using 'shashsha'/'zazza' sounds or inserting nasalisation/bindees.

I would be very grateful if anyone can help in this respect as this is how i like to hear paath and this will make it easier for me to find such recordings.

blessings

damdami taksal teach in that way, its up to the student how much depth they want to learn and how much they practise... one who practises more and does more abhiyaas there paat will naturally be better than those who dont

thanks for the information i truely appreciate it

[spiritualityexperience.org]

By Bhai Rajinder Singh Ji, student of the esteemed Prof Sahib Singh Ji.

It would be interesting to note that neither Sant Gurbachan Singh jee nor Sant Kartar Singh jee and nor Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale pronounced the laghu maatras (aunkad and sihaari) of words with the exception of those ending with a haaha or eeRee.

I have listened to the nitnem by Sant Kartar Singh jee and vouch that he did not pronounce as Bhagat jee does. Same way, when listening to katha done by Vadde Sant - Sant Gurbachan Singh jee - I have noticed that he or the Singh that reads baani when he does katha, do not do uchaaran of laghu maatras. This proves that this particular uchaaran done by Bhagat jee is not the kind of uchaaran that Taksal used to teach.

Daas,
Kulbir Singh

the paathis for katha of sant jarnail singh, sant kartaar singh and sant gurbachan singh all pronounce laagamatars, but keep them very short, and thus it is not easy to hear. The way bhagat jee does paath is how vidyarthees are originally taught when they first start doing santhiya, many young singhs in taksal originally learn this way. As abhyaas of bani increase, laagamatars become shorter and shorter, and after a while are hard to pick up on unless you do paath the same way.

Proof that many paathis of taksal say all lagamatars include that most say gurprasaad(i), and the sihari is cleary audible, in jaap sahib katha the paathi says chit and sant jarnail singh tells him to say chit(i) with a sihari, when sant jarnail singh says to say with a sihari and repeats the word with correct ucharan 99% of people will not be able to hear the sihari, but those who have done santhiya this way will know it is being said. In many of Sant Gurbachan Singh's katha file laagamaatars are clearly audible, but are kept as laagamatars instead of in deerag form.

Perhaps a valid complaint is that laagamaatars should be kept very short, but to say that taksaal doesn't teach to say laagamatars is not correct. If you listen to the santhiya files prepared by Gyani Mohan Singh's taksal recently, after santhiya of the shabad "vaahiguroo vahiguroo vaahiguroo vaahi jeeo" one of the vidyarthees asks why the word bunm in the tuk "kaal kalam hukam haath kehahu koun maett sakai ees banm gaan dhaan dharath heeai chaahi jeeo |" was not said with an aunkur on the mamaa, the ustaad responds by saying that it was said as a laagamatar and the vidtyarthee probably missed hearing it, but it was indeed said.

I believe this is enough proof that Taksal has a tradition of saying laagamatars and Bhagat Jee is not wrong in continuing this tradition.

----
the paathis for katha of sant jarnail singh, sant kartaar singh and sant gurbachan singh all pronounce laagamatars, but keep them very short, and thus it is not easy to hear.
-------

Then it would be a good idea to keep the tradition of pronouncing lagamaatra but to keep them so short that they are not easy to hear. There must be a reason, why Sant jee did not pronounce them audibly. To pronounce Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee's name as 'Nanaku' or 'Nanaki' does not seem right. These laghu maatras are for grammar purpose not pronounciation purpose.

Though I personally believe in not pronouncing the these lagamatra but I am not against those Gursikhs who choose to pronounce these lagamatras but this pronunciation should be as subtle as in the case of Sant jee i.e. not noticeable to the normal ear. There is no need to change the tradition of keep the sound of these laghu maatras as subtle as possible and not pronouncing them in deeragh form.

The above is my personal view. Baani is agam agaadh bodh. I don't claim I know the truth. What I wrote is based on my meagre understanding of Gurbani.

Kulbir Singh



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2008 10:43AM by admin.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

veer jee,

you wrote:

"my question to you all is can someone tell me what group/personalities also do this? who pronounce Gurbani AS IT IS WRITTEN- without using 'shashsha'/'zazza' sounds or inserting nasalisation/bindees".

baba gurbachan singh jee bhindraa(n)valae taught that nasalisation is needed in many places so one cannot look to taksaal to find paath which does not feature 'extra sounds' which are added to make meanings clear.

as far as nasalisation is concerned, some teach that you need to do it in more places, some teach that you should do it in less places.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

When one receieved santhia from taksal or a vidiarthi from taksal they are taught to pronounce the lagamatars, hence when a student listens to the katha or paat they can pick up where they are said and where the paati singh has and hasnt pronounced them. However one who hasnt received the santhia wudnt be able to see the diffrence, Bhagat jee is the recording is pronouncung all of them very very loudly so we can see that this is how the paat is meant to be, bhagat jee is pronouncing loudly, however most paati singhs do not do as loud as bhagat jee, but that is ones prference, to pronounce bani loudly or quietly, but they do pronounce, listen to singh sahib ram singhs prnounciation, he does is similar

[gurmatveechar.org]

and bhindran

[gurmatveechar.org]

I was reading salok vaaran de vadheek today, and it reminded me why I believe it is beneficial to pronounce laagamatars. The following tuk comes in teesrae paatshaahs saloks:

ਧਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਕਲਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਜਿ ਚਲੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਭਾਇ

I have heard paathis read this salok many times, and many times wondered what the meanings were. I had always assumed that ਜਿ was actually ਜੇ, and never had any clue that kaljug had a siharee on the gagaa. Correct me if I am wrong but ਜਿ being spelled as it is, and kaljug having a siharee on the gagaa gives the meaning 'that person is dhan in kaljug if he stays within satguru's bhana', this meaning cannot be derived unless a person knows that jae is spelled with siharee on the jajaa and not a laav, and gagaa in kaljug has a sihraee on the gagaa.

The way most paathis read this tuk is without the siharee on the gagaa, and say 'ji' as if it is jae. Correct me if I'm wrong but if it is read like this the listener will believe that the tuk means that kaljug is dhann if it goes within satgurus bhana.

My point is that if the paathi had read the tuk as it is written, it would have made it alot easier for me, the listener, to understand it. Instead I only understood the meaning once I read the tuk by myself.

Although I do not believe bani to be limited to viakaran, I believe that someone who does paath while saying laagumaatars will quickly pick up on simple viakaran rules in bani such as difference between ik(i) with siharee and ik(u) with onkarh, bhagat with tatae tae siharee, mukta or aukarh and the meaning of the many words such as sangat, karam, etc. that end with a siharee.

I feel very fortunate that my first santhia ustaad did teach me to pronounce laagumaatars and i would personally encourage other gurmukhs to start doing so as well as you will notice the difference.

yeah im currently having santhea from a taksali Ustaad and we are taught Mool Manter to pronounce all the Siaahee and ounkars so Aadi Sachu, Juaadi Sachu, but the emphasis placed on theme is very deliacte, erm...........i cant explain this very well.......becasue you cant write in an adequet way about pronounciation.....lol.

but if you take a pothi sahib of japji sahib and listen to Bhai Jarnail Singh ji nitnem audios you will know what i mean...............

bhul chuck maafi if that sounds confusing...