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Chitropokhian?
Posted by: Ekta Singh (IP Logged)
Date: November 15, 2009 11:28AM

What is Bhai Kulbir Singh Jee's and other singhs views on chitropokian? Is it gurbani written from Guru Gobind Singh Jee. This gurbanee talks about sex and other diry things. Would guru jee write about this?

 



Re: Chitropokhian?
Posted by: TarnveerSingh (IP Logged)
Date: November 15, 2009 09:08PM

VaahegurooJeeKaaKhaalsaaVaahegurooJeeKeeFateh!

VeerJee, sounds like you have already made up your mind on this topic when you spew such ignorant statements such as "this gurbanee talks about sex and other dirty things." Are you really curious, or just trying to stir up controversy?

There is no doubt in the minds of most GurSikhs that ALL of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib is the work of Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee. Other baanees such as Sri Bhagautee Ustotar and Ugardantee are also the work of Guru Sahib. This is the belief of Jathebandees such as Damdami Taksaal and all Nihang Jathey. Do some independent research on Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Jee's views on this topic and you will see that Akhand Kirtanee Jatha's stance SHOULD also fully support ALL of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib.

Unfortunately, there are many "scholars" and other Sikh-missionary types of characters who now align themselves with AKJ. They are now influencing a whole new generation of youth, and spreading false anti-Dasam Granth propaganda.

Some of these moorakhs even doubt Vaar Sri Bhagautee Jee Kee (Chandee Dee Vaar) and Shastar Naam Maalaa as being Guru Sahib's work. And they have the audacity to call themselves Singhs of Akhand Keertani Jathaa. They must know better that Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Jee and puraatan Jathaa Singhs then, I guess. Bhai Sahib openly quotes from these baanees in his books.

Singho, don't be misled. Please visit www.dushtdaman.org and www.patshahi10.com and read through the articles carefully.

To be clear, only some of the charitars in Charitropakhyaan are about the relationships between men and women. There are also those which discuss various aspects of the different 5 chors/dushts. There are many lessons to be learned from them.

VaahegurooJeeKaaKhaalsaaVaahegurooJeeKeeFateh!
Tarnveer Singh
Sacramento, California

 



Re: Chitropokhian?
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: November 16, 2009 08:55AM

My knowledge about Dasam Granth is very limited but my views about Dasam Granth are traditionalist i.e. I believe it to be Rachna of Guru Sahib. Talking to Singhs, I have discovered that Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee used to consider it mukhbaak of Guru Sahib and quoted extensively from it. Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha, Bhai Vir Singh, Sirdar Kapur Singh, Pyara Singh Padam and many other respected scholars had similar views about Dasam Granth.

About Charitropakhyan, I believe it to be a literary composition of Guru Sahib and similar was the view of other scholars as well but within this composition also lies such baani that has status of Gurbani e.g. Benti Chaupai. About Krishnavatar Guru Sahib themselves have written that it is the translation of tenth chapter of Sirimad Bhagwat Puran:

Dasam Katha Bhagaut kee Bhakhiya Kari Banaaye||
Avar Baasna Nahi Prabh, Dharam Judh ko chaye||

But within Chaubees Avatar there is Mukhbaak baani e.g. Mai na Ganeshe Pritham manaayoo||

I have read about first 100 of the total 404 Charitters in form of original text and did not find any offensive material. The stories are all moral-giving and the end result is to teach the reader about the wiles of bad women and men. Below are some of the quotes from this baani that are found either at the end of the story or within the story. The translations have been done by this daas, so there could be some mistakes.


1) ਬਿਛੂ ਬਿਸੀਅਰੁ ਬੇਸਯਾ, ਕਹੋ ਕਵਨ ਕੇ ਮੀਤ।

ਬਿਛੂ, ਸੱਪ ਤੇ ਬੇਸਵਾ, ਕਹੋ ਕਿਸ ਦੇ ਮੀਤ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ।

Scorpian, snake and prostitute, are who's friend? Meaning, they are no one's friend.

2) ਜੋ ਤੁਮ ਸੌ ਹਿਤ ਕਰੇ ਨਾ ਤੁਮ ਤਿਨ ਸੋ ਕਰੋ। ਜੋ ਤੁਮਰੇ ਰਸ ਢਰੇ, ਨ ਤਿਹ ਰਸ ਤੁਮ ਢਰੋ।

ਜੇ ਪਰਾਈ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਤੁਹਾਡੇ ਨਾਲ ਪਿਆਰ ਕਰੇ, ਤੁਸੀਂ ਉਸ ਨਾਲ ਪਿਆਰ ਨਾ ਕਰੋ। ਜੇ ਪਰਾਈ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਤੁਹਾਡੇ ਰਸ ਵਿਚ ਮਗਨ ਹੋ ਜਾਵੇ ਤੁਸੀਂ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਰਸ ਵਿਚ ਮਗਨ ਨਾ ਹੋਵੋ।

If Parayee woman (not your own woman) loves you, you should not return her love. If she becomes intoxicated in your love, you should not do the same towards her.


3) ਕੋਟ ਕਸਟ ਸਯਾਨੇ ਸਹਹਿ, ਕੈਸੋ ਦਹੈ ਅਨੰਗ। ਨੈਕ ਨੇਹ ਨਹਿ ਕੀਜਿਯੈ, ਤਊ ਤਰੁਨਿ ਕੇ ਸੰਗ।

ਸਿਆਣੇ ਭਾਵੇਂ ਕਰੋੜਾਂ ਕਸ਼ਟ ਸਹਿਣ, ਭਾਂਵੇਂ ਕਾਮ ਕਿਨਾਂ ਵੀ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਸਾੜੇ ਤਾਂ ਵੀ ਉਹ ਪਰਾਈ ਤਰੁਨੀ ਨਾਲ ਸੰਗ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਦੇ।

No matter how much wise people warn you about facing difficulties, no matter how much Kaam (sexual urge) burns you, still you should never commit fornication (have sexual contact) with Parayee woman (woman not your own wife).


4) ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਕੈਸਿਯੈ ਤਨ ਬਢੈ, ਕਸਟ ਕੈਸਹੂ ਹੋਇ। ਤਊ ਤਰੁਨਿ ਸੋ ਦੋਸਤੀ, ਭੂਲਿ ਨ ਕਰਿਯਹੁ ਕੋਇ।

ਭਾਵੇਂ ਕੈਸੀ ਵੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਪਰਾਈ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਜਤਾਵੇ, ਭਾਂਵੇਂ ਕਿਨਾਂ ਵੀ ਕਸ਼ਟ ਹੋਵੇ, ਫਿਰ ਵੀ ਪਰ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਨਾਲ ਭੁਲ ਕੇ ਵੀ ਦੋਸਤੀ ਨਾ ਕਰਿਓ ਕੋਈ।

No matter how much love Paraayee woman expresses, no matter how much she tortures you, still even in your dreams don't do friendship with her.


5) ਸਤਿਨਾਮ ਜੋ ਜਿਯ ਲਖਿ ਪਾਵੈ। ਤਾ ਕੇ ਕਾਲ ਨਿਕਟ ਨਹਿ ਆਵੈ। ਬਿਨਾ ਨਾਮ ਤਾ ਕੇ ਜੋ ਰਹਿ ਹੈ। ਬਨ, ਗਿਰ, ਪੁਰ, ਮੰਦਰ ਸਭ ਢਹਿ ਹੈ।

ਜੋ ਸਤਿਨਾਮ ਨੂੰ ਮਨ ਕਰਕੇ ਲਖ ਲਵੇ ਭਾਵ ਸਮਝ ਲਵੇ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਨਿਕਟ ਫਿਰ ਕਾਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਉਂਦਾ ਭਾਵ ਉਹ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਵਿਚ ਨਹੀਂ ਪੈਂਦਾ। ਜੋ ਨਾਮ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾਂ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ ਉਹ ਤੇ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਬਨ, ਨਗਰ, ਘਰ ਸਭ ਢੱਠ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ।

One who recognizes the true Naam, spiritual death never occurs on him. Ones who remain without Naam, all their gardens, cities and houses are destroyed.

6) ਸਤਿਨਾਮ ਜੋ ਪੁਰਖ ਪਛਾਨੈ। ਸਤਿਨਾਮ ਲੈ ਬਚਨ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨੈ। ਸਤਿਨਾਮ ਮਾਰਗ ਲੈ ਚਲਹੀ। ਤਾ ਕੋ ਕਾਲ ਨਾ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਦਲਹੀ।

ਜੋ ਪੁਰਖ ਸਤਿਨਾਮ ਨੂੰ ਪਛਾਣ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਜੋ ਗੁਰੂ ਕੇ ਬਚਨਾਂ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਸਤਿਨਾਮ ਨੂੰ ਸਿਧ ਕਰੇ ਤੇ ਜੋ ਸਤਿਨਾਮ ਨੂੰ ਲੈ ਕੇ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਗਾਡੀ ਰਾਹ ਤੇ ਚਲੇ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਕਦੇ ਵੀ ਕਾਲ ਤਬਾਹ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰ ਸਕਦਾ।

One who recognizes the true Naam, chants and does Sidhi of Naam through the Bachan of Guru and one who walks on this paath of true Naam, death can never destry him.

7) ਸੁਤ ਹਿਤ ਕੈ ਮਾਤਾ ਦੁਲਰਾਵੈ। ਕਾਲ ਮੂੰਡ ਪਰ ਦਾਂਤ ਬਜਾਵੈ। ਵਹੁ ਨਿਤ ਲਖੇ ਪੂਤ ਬਢਿ ਜਾਵਤ। ਲੈਨ ਨ ਮੂੜ ਕਾਲ ਨਿਜਕਾਵਤ।

ਮਾਤਾ ਮੋਹ ਵਿਚ ਪੁੱਤਰ ਨੂੰ ਖਿਡਾਉਂਦੀ ਹੈ ਪਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਣਦੀ ਕਿ ਪੁੱਤਰ ਦੇ ਸਿਰ ਤੇ ਮੌਤ ਦੰਦ ਪੀਹ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ। ਉਹ ਨਿਤ ਤੱਕਦੀ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਉਸ ਦਾ ਪੁੱਤਰ ਵਡਾ ਹੋ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ ਪਰ ਮੂਰਖ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਣਦੀ ਕਿ ਅਸਲ ਵਿਚ ਮੌਤ ਨੇੜੇ ਆ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ।

Under the spell of attachment the mother loves her child and plays with it but she does not know that Kaal (death) is inevitable on her head. She thinks her son is getting older and big but ignorant one does not know that actually death is coming close to him.


8) ਕੋ ਮਾਤਾ ਬਨਿਤਾ ਸੁਤਾ, ਪਾਚ ਤਤ ਕੀ ਦੇਹ। ਦਿਵਸ ਚਾਰ ਕੋ ਪੇਖਨਾ ਅੰਤ ਖੇਹ ਕੀ ਖੇਹ।

ਕੌਣ ਕਿਸੇ ਦੀ ਮਾਤਾ, ਪਤਨੀ ਤੇ ਬੇਟੀ ਹੈ; ਇਹ ਦੇਹੀ ਤਾਂ ਪੰਜਾਂ ਤੱਤਾਂ ਦੀ ਬਣੀ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ। ਚਾਰ ਦਿਨ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਦੇਖੀ ਦੀ ਹੈ ਇਹ ਦੇਹੀ ਤੇ ਅਖੀਰ ਵਿਚ ਖੇਹ ਦੀ ਖੇਹ ਰਹਿ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ।

Who is anyone's mother, wife and daughter? This body is made of 5 basic elements. For 4 days this body is seen and then it becomes dust.

9) ਬਿਰਧ ਭਏ ਤਨ ਕਾਪਈ, ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਜਪਿਯੋ ਜਾਇ। ਬਿਨਾ ਭਜਨ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਕੇ ਪਾਪ ਗ੍ਰਿਹਤ ਤਨ ਆਇ। ਮਿਰਤੁ ਲੋਕ ਮੈ ਆਇ ਕੈ, ਬਾਲ ਬ੍ਰਿਧ ਕੋਊ ਹੋਇ। ਊਚ ਨੀਚ ਰਾਜਾ ਪ੍ਰਜਾ ਜਿਯਤ ਨ ਰਹਸੀ ਕੋਇ।

ਬਿਰਧ ਹੋਣ ਤੇ ਦੇਹ ਕੰਬਣ ਲਗ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਨਾਮ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਪਿਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ। ਬਿਨਾਂ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਭਜਨ ਤੋਂ ਪਾਪ ਸਰੀਰ ਨੂੰ ਆ ਕੇ ਚਿੰਬੜ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ। ਮਾਤ ਲੋਕ ਵਿਚ ਆ ਕੇ ਚਾਹੇ ਕੋਈ ਬੱਚਾ ਹੋਵੇ, ਬੁਢਾ ਹੋਵੇ, ਉਚਾ ਹੋਵੇ, ਨੀਚ ਹੋਵੇ, ਰਾਜਾ ਹੋਵੇ ਤੇ ਚਾਹੇ ਪਰਜਾ ਹੋਵੇ, ਕੋਈ ਵੀ ਇਥੇ ਜੀਊਂਦਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹਮੇਸ਼ਾ।

When one gets old, ones body trembles and one can't chant Naam. Without Chanting of Naam, sins control the body. In this mortal world, no one including child, old person, great person, lowly person, king or commoner, stay alive forever.

10) ਜੋ ਉਪਜਿਯੋ ਸੋ ਬਿਨਸ ਹੈ, ਜਗ ਰਹਿਬੋ ਦਿਨ ਚਾਰਿ। ਸੁਤ ਬਨਿਤਾ ਦਾਸੀ ਕਹਾ, ਦੇਖਹੁ ਤਤ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ।

ਜੋ ਪੈਦਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ ਉਸ ਨੇ ਤਬਾਹ ਹੋਣਾ ਹੈ। ਇਸ ਜੱਗ ਵਿਚ ਚਾਰ ਦਿਨ ਦਾ ਰਹਿਣਾ ਹੈ। ਪੁੱਤਰ, ਪਤਨੀ ਤੇ ਦਾਸੀਆਂ ਕਿਥੇ ਰਹਿਣਗੀਆਂ, ਇਹ ਤੱਤ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਕੇ ਦੇਖ ਲਵੋ।

Whoever is born will die; will stay in this world for 4 days only. Sons, wife, servants all will go, think about this essence of thought.

These are just some of the quotes from first 100 charitters that I have read. Some argue that these stories are such that one cannot narrate them in family because of their sexual nature. The answer to this is that there comes a time when parents especially mother to daughter and father to son, explains them about something sex. They may not go into details but mother definitely warn their adolesence daughters about not having boyfriends and to control their sexual urges. Same way, the father or elder brother will explain to the teenager child to stay away from the wrong path. Such things are not explained in open but in private. Same way, the composition of Charitropakhyan is such that a Sikh should study alone or in sangat of Gurmukhs and understand the dangers of going to the wrong path of Kaam. This is not an admissible argument that just because it cannot be discussed in open, it is not the composition of Guru Sahib.

Daas,
Kulbir Singh

 



Re: Chitropokhian?
Posted by: Akaalee (IP Logged)
Date: December 07, 2009 09:17AM

The story of Anoop Kaur in Chitropokhian which Ragi Darshan singh has misinterpreted, gives a very graphic picture of how a Gursikh should avoid a situation where he is in a place with a women other than his wife. Even if nothing takes place others can perceive things differently.

From experience I know of GurSikhs who have been in a situation where nothing has happened but just by being in a room together it gives way to suspicion. I would always recommend that you have another person with you in a situation like that. I would never advice you talk to the opposite sex (other than your wife/mother/sister) alone.

Kaam is very powerful and no one should underestimate it, no one can say they have eliminated it. It can only be controlled through Naam, Sangat and Gurmat Rehat.


Infact reading Chitropokhian one gets put off the subject of Kaam which is unusual for something which talks about the subject of Kaam.

I don’t think some interpretations of Chitropokhian do it justice.

 



Re: Chitropokhian?
Posted by: Sukhdeep SIngh (IP Logged)
Date: December 07, 2009 03:18PM

Akaalee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
I would always recommend that you have
> another person with you in a situation like that.
> I would never advice you talk to the opposite sex
> (other than your wife/mother/sister) alone.
>



I agree that we should avoid such situations to to avoid suspicion and allegations, but I dont think we should get to the point where we start following Abrahamic- Islamic mat. Meaning we shouldnt think that Women lead men to have uncontrollable thoughts thus they need to be separate from women . I think its wrong and somewhat oppressive to veil women away from men. Im not a feminist or anything but this seems to be contrary to Gurmat. As long as we regard females as our mother, daughter or sister them there is no fault in being around them.

 



Re: Chitropokhian?
Posted by: NiranjanSingh (IP Logged)
Date: December 07, 2009 06:38PM

Akaalee Ji,

The charittars Ragi is speaking of in his offensive video - there is no such character as "Noop Kaur", instead it is "Roop Koer."

I also have a comment for the original poster "Ekta Singh", you stated that "This gurbanee talks about sex and other dirty things."

As Sikhs, how can we even make such statements? If we call it gurbanee, then we believe Guru Ji wrote it. Then how can something Guru Ji wrote be "dirty"?

Do you believe these verses of gurbanee are also dirty? [www.sikhitothemax.com]

The above shabad occurs in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. All of Gurbanee, in Aad Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib is PURE GURBANEE, because it was written by our PURE PURA-SURA SATGURU JI.

Gurbanee is capable of dissolving the slime and dirt we have accumulated from millions of our janams :

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਿ ਸਰਬ ਫਲ ਪਾਏ ॥
ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕੀ ਮੈਲੁ ਮਿਟਾਏ ॥1॥

It is not the gurbanee that is "dirty", GURBANEE is CLEAN-PURE. It is us who are
actually dirty, with "maill" (dirt) from millions of janams, therefore we can not see clearly and recognize the essence of our Guru Ji's message.

It is only GURBANEE that will cleanse us - so please don't pollute your mind and karams by disrespecting it.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਤਿ ਸਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਗੁਰਸਿਖਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਮੁਹਹੁ ਕਢਾਏ ॥

 



Re: Chitropokhian?
Posted by: Akaalee (IP Logged)
Date: December 08, 2009 10:05AM

Niranjan Singh jee, I was writing from memory so I could be wrong. I will try to check the wording. Even if kaur was used that does not mean that person was a Sikh. Remember that this was written before the formation of the Khalsa.

Sukhdeep Singh, I did not say being around women is wrong. All I said was being alone with other women should be prevented. I don’t know why you brought the subject of veiling women in to this discussion. What I said works both ways and therefore can not be sexist.

Anyway that’s the conclusion I got from that particular episode. What more do you think the Raja should have done to prevent such a scenario? Or what do you think should be the moral of that episode?

I’m a bit old fashioned and I always think prevention is always better than the cure.

Anyone that has got anywhere in Sikhi has not got there by being modern/liberal in thought, they have always lived in fear of Sharam and Dharam.

 



Re: Chitropokhian?
Posted by: Sukhdeep SIngh (IP Logged)
Date: December 08, 2009 03:14PM

Akaalee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Niranjan Singh jee, I was writing from memory so I
> could be wrong. I will try to check the wording.
> Even if kaur was used that does not mean that
> person was a Sikh. Remember that this was written
> before the formation of the Khalsa.
>
> Sukhdeep Singh, I did not say being around women
> is wrong. All I said was being alone with other
> women should be prevented. I don’t know why you
> brought the subject of veiling women in to this
> discussion. What I said works both ways and
> therefore can not be sexist.
>
> Anyway that’s the conclusion I got from that
> particular episode. What more do you think the
> Raja should have done to prevent such a scenario?
> Or what do you think should be the moral of that
> episode?
>
> I’m a bit old fashioned and I always think
> prevention is always better than the cure.
>
> Anyone that has got anywhere in Sikhi has not got
> there by being modern/liberal in thought, they
> have always lived in fear of Sharam and Dharam.


Singh Ji I think there is a misunderstanding. I was not stating you are sexist. I was talking about people in general. The problem is alot of people read these verses in Sri Dasam Granth and they come to the conclusion that women are evil. But this is not what Guru Sahib is stating. I think the lesson Guru Sahib is teaching is Dont be seduced by devious women. In the ancient times the Mughals tried to bribe the captured Singhs with delicious food, water, and women. The ancient rehatnamas indicate this.Guru Sahib knew that such times will occur so Guru Sahib was teaching his fauj not to be seduced by such bribes even if one is hungry, or thirsty,etc. Guru Sahibs fauj were taught to be celibate- meaning not to have relations with anyone other then their wife even if it meant restraining from relations for a long period of time. That is being a true celibate/warrior!

Im a bit of a progressive person. I have no problem being around women even alone. I work in the social field and mainly women enter this profession. In my last job I worked with 10 women and I was the only man. I told them that as per my Gurus instructions I regard them all as my mothers, and I hope that they would regard me as a Son, thus we had a decent and respectful relationship. Even when I have group projects at School there are times when Im In a study room by myself with another women. If I had the mentality like those of other faiths and believed that this women is evil and trying to seduce me then I will get Kaami thoughts, but I try to make efforts and follow Gurus teachings and regard the person as my sister then we will respect one another. The Gurmukhs I respect most in life always treated women as their sister, mother, or daughter. They never avioded being around women. I try to the same and try to acknowledge women as human beings and treat them as equals. These Gurmukhs who had " liberal thinking" reached the highest stage of spirituality.

 



Re: Chitropokhian?
Posted by: Akaalee (IP Logged)
Date: December 09, 2009 04:32AM

First of all my comments were targeted towards a social environment were you have a choice and not at a work environment. Everyone understands that at work you sometimes are not free to choose or do what you want.


>>>They never avioded being around women. I try to the same and try to acknowledge women as human beings and treat them as equals. These Gurmukhs who had " liberal thinking" reached the highest stage of spirituality.


What makes you think I do not treat women as human beings and don’t treat them as equals? Again what I said works both ways. Which examples of Gurmukhs can you give who had liberal thinking which reached the highest stage? i.e sat with other women alone socially.

 



Re: Chitropokhian?
Posted by: Ekta Singh (IP Logged)
Date: December 14, 2009 06:53AM

Saadh sangat jee I sincerly opologise for making the statement I made. I have been brained washed by those who oppose this bani. Daas does now believe this to be gurbanee of guru jee. I opologise to guru sahib and pyaree saadh sangat jee.

khin kin bholananhaar

 





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